ROGER REPLIES TO DAVID B. ON THE QUOTE
THAT PIRSIG SENT TO ANTHONY M.
Dear David and Squad:
I started out with a quote from Glove's 3/24/99 contribution to MOQDiscuss
titled "The 99% Solution." To some extent, various conversations started in
that thread have been spilling into this forum
"In the MOQ, experience is pure Quality which gives rise to the creation
of intellectual patterns which in turn produce a division between
subjects and objects. Among these patterns is the intellectual pattern
that says 'there is an external world of things out there which are
independent of intellectual patterns'. That is one of the highest
quality intellectual patterns there is. And in this highest quality
intellectual pattern, external objects appear historically before
intellectual patterns... But this highest quality intellectual pattern
itself comes before the external world, not after, as is commonly
presumed by the materialist."
David replied:
[DB]
I like to think that my feeble mind can handle subtle distinctions and
the paradoxical nature of certain ideas, but this has me completely
stumped. If the last sentence were not included, I'd have no problem
with the quote. The last thought seems to flatly contradict the previous
thoughts. Do external "objects" come historically before the
intellectual patterns or not? Pirsig seems to be making two incompatable
claims. Perhaps something was lost or omitted in translation? Perhaps
it is a typographical error? I just don't see any subtlety or paradox
here, only simple contradiction. Either there has been a mistake or I
need help.
[Rog]
Thanks for responding, David. I suggest you go to the original post by Glove
in the MOQ Archive. It includes a context to help make sense of it all. The
only interpretation that works for me is that Direct Experience (DQ) creates
the intellectual abstractions of all 4 levels. In a similar vein, Keith just
quoted Pirsig from chapter 5:
" Quality is a direct experience prior to intellectual abstractions."
This is in line with the exchange that John and I have been having. My take
on it is that experience may be said to evolve from inorganic to
intellectual, but the static patterns, which are said to evolve the same
direction all require the intellect as a foundation. Intellectual experience
creates the divisions and abstractions we refer to as the material world.
[DB]
Roger also notes that Pirsig concludes by saying that "things" like
gravity are an external reality "in a very high quality interpetation of
experience". This also contradicts that last sentence and seems to back
up the first thoughts. By "a very high quality interpetation of
experience" doesn't Pirsig mean a map that very closely corresponds to
the acutal territory? I think he's saying yes, there is an external
reality as far as we can tell. He's saying that there is almost
certainly some difference between the external reality itself and our
ideas about it, but that we can be pretty certain its not just in our
minds.
[Rog]
He is not denying reality, he is defining 'external' reality as an
intellectual construct. A very high quality intellectual pattern or
interpretation, to use his words. And he is definitely not saying "it is in
our minds", as this too is an intellectual construct or abstraction.
[DB]
....our ability to have ideas (intellectual patterns of value)
is predicated on the existence of the three prior levels. It seems the
org, bio and social levels are a prerequisite of intellectual value
patterns. The foundation and walls have to be constructed before the
roof can be built. Otherwise you've got slate tiles and a gutter system
floating in thin air, if you know what I mean.
[Rog]
No, they float on DQ. (granted this is a crude analogy). The three prior
levels are themselves constructed as explanations for this experience.
[DB]
In the same letter from Pirsig to McWatt he says that "subatomic forces
can express limited preferences too." Clearly this implies that there is
"mind" as well as "matter" even on the first level of static patterns.
[Rog]
Why? Mind and matter are just further abstractions of this defined and
therefore no longer pure experience.
[DB]
All static patterns are created by "experience" at all levels.
[Rog]
Okay.
[DB]
There is
mind and matter at all levels.
[Rog]
I still feel uncomfortable with this statement. I am concerned you are
dragging in difficult SOM terms where they are not only unnecessary, but
confusing. When Pirsig stated that mind is contained in matter and matter in
mind, he meant that matter is an intellectual construct that is
intellectually said to develop into brains which (intellectually can be said)
to interact in societies that (intellectually can be said to) develop into
intellectual patterns. (Hell, my statement was even MORE CONFUSING...lol).
Let me instead paraphrase the Big Kahuna: Intellectual patterns come before
the external world, not after, because the external world is an intellectual
abstraction itself.
Thanks David! Let me know if my thoughts make any sense. Viva la exchange!
Roger
PS -- I also want to reply to Keith's awesome post, but for some reason it
has not shown up in my EMail yet. (Even though it showed up in the archive
yesterday?)
MOQ Online - http://www.moq.org
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