Jonathan and John B,
This is a case of "Many Truths" in operation. Everyone had to grow into
the correct interpretation which was eventually accepted as a growth in the
level of understanding.
Contrast this to the ten Commandments being forced on the Israelis on the
backs of 3 thousand of their slain kinsmen. Not a good example of "Many
Truths". At the moment I can think of no religion that was not started in
much the same way. Help me out here.
John B says:
JOHN B.
>If our opinions are all of equal value, and are equally relative,
> then our debate becomes an amusement, with no significance at all.
>
Clark says:
This is exactly what I see going on now. If we pick out one little aspect
of Pirsig's argument we will never make any progress.
Pirsig set up the universe as having value and geing good and moral
simply by virtue of being the result of the possibilities that were
generated as it formed. All fitted and was good and moral and had value. (
I look upon this as being the result ot being Quality driven but that is
neither here or there). Under these conditions nothing could happen that
did not have value and goodness and morality.
With the advent of Humanity, with which came sentience, it bacame
possible to inject badness and immorality and valuelessness into the
universe.
Pirsig took care of this with the concept of "Many Truths" which would
slowly and inexorably lead us toward goodness and morality and value. We
will continually be on a path back toward Universal Quality just as in the
case of the Brujo. As far as the other religions of the world I think we
have a long, long way to go. In our arguments we should keep the full sweep
of Pirsig's plan in mind and make our arguments conform to that. Ken Clark
----------
From: Jonathan Marder <marder@agri.huji.ac.il>
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD The leuchter case
Date: Sunday, January 02, 2000 7:34 AM
Hi John B. and all,
JOHN B. writes
> Pirsig in ZMM suggests that everyone recognizes quality when they see it,
> and then destroys his own argument with his test with his writing class -
two students chose
> the supposedly low quality text as the best.
We should allow for some fuzziness - people "tend" to recognise the same
quality, but there are always exceptions.
A group of individuals will tend towards a particular choice. Certain
individuals may dissent. The general trend is an observation - pretty much
an empirical fact! Children unarguably tend to prefer potato chips to
spinach.
> How do we show them they are wrong? As
> someone has already said re this issue, it is not a case for majority
votes, or the Bruni would
> have been in the wrong. This is a fundamental issue.
They may not be wrong. Either the minority failed to consider some aspect,
or it is the majority who failed. Opinions are coloured by ignorance, and
may change as the ignorance is pushed back. Of course, opinions can also
change due to misinformation !!! (any advertisers out there?).
JOHN B.
>If our opinions are all of equal value, and are equally relative,
> then our debate becomes an amusement, with no significance at all.
>
> I do not believe this is the case. However, I will readily concede that
much of what I or
> anybody else holds to be self evident may well prove to be projection.
Indeed, but the projections are themselves open to evaluation. We can
CHOOSE
which projections seem most likely.
[snip]
> But this is a moral tale. Was Leuchter evil? I say yes.
I don't know the details of the case, but it sounds like he is one of a
long
line of Holocaust deniers. They ask us to ignore the overwhelming evidence
of our own eyes and ears. Fortunately, few people are taken in.
Jonathan
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