David and fellow philosophers,
Okay, I think I see what you're saying now. You're using determinism in the
sense of "determined choice" as opposed to fatalism, which asks, "how can I
make a determined choice if the 'choices' I make are the only ones I can
make based upon my life to that point?" Fatalism, in that sense, is strict
determinism (i.e. there is only one way things can be and that is the way
that they are).
Your idea of "determined choice" seems to me to be no different from the
traditional free will position, which I believe to be flawed because it
assumes a false sense of self.
Question: What is making the choice?
Answer: Those things that determine the choice.
Question: What things determine the choice?
Answer: Predispositions and experiences produced by Quality.
Question: What is the nature of these dispositions and experiences?
Answer: They are the self. There is no self beyond this. (If anyone would
like to defend the existence of such a self, I'd love to hear the arguments.
I've never heard any that convince me.)
In this sense, both determinism and free will are correct. I do in fact
determine my actions, but we can only take this to be true if we reject the
traditional notion of who "I" am.
On a side note, however, I am not a fatalist (i.e strict determinist).
Fatalism says that there is only one way that things can be and that the
forces of the universe are driving toward a predestined future. I believe
that this idea has actually been disproven by science. Quantum theory has
completely undermined the notion of causation and shown that everything is
based on probabilities, not absolutes. I have personally been convinced by
Pirsig that it is Quality that stands behind these probabilities, but that's
a philosophical position, not a scientific one.
- Matt
----------
>From: David Lind <Trickster@postmark.net>
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: Re: MD free will as a meaningless term
>Date: Thu, Feb 10, 2000, 10:52 AM
>
> Matthew Ketchum wrote:
>
>> IV. David Lind wrote:
>>
>> "Seems there's at least a third alternate to determined or random.
>> What if life is "pre-programmed"? Neither random or up to us to
>> choose what will happen. What if we are merely playing our parts in
>> some grand cosmic play? (I don't necessarily believe this, but it's
>> possible, isn't it?)"
>>
>> My response:
>>
>> I don't exactly know what you mean, but let me try to clarify my position
>> and see if that helps. I don't think anyone would argue that human actions
>> aren't determined by human will. That is, ultimately, human beings take
>> actions that they wish to take. However, the question still remains as to
>> what determines human will. Actually, the first question is whether or not
>> it is determined at all. I think that the answer is obviously yes, because
>> if something isn't determined, then it HAS to be random,
>>
>
> David Lind writes.....
>
> What I was presenting (in a very limited manner) is what I believe is
> called fatalism. That all of life is already laid out. We do what we
> are fated to do. Not a bunch of random acts and not a eries of
> independent determined choices. But we live out our lives fated to do
> what we do. This seems to me to be different than random or
> determined.
>
> And then there's the phrase - "if you could have done it differently,
> you would have done it differently" - every action we take is the
> only action we could take at that moment based upon our unique
> experiences. This doesn't seem to be random or determined. i mean,
> how can i make a determined choice if the "choices" i make are the
> only ones i can make based upon my life to that point?
>
>
> Shalom
>
> David Lind
> Trickster@postmark.net
>
>
>
>
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