>Jon,
> JON:
> Rick, I fully understand your problem with all the levels being
> "intellectual" constructs.
> Subject-Object dualism to the rescue !!!!!!!!!
> Yes, I really mean it.
> Those intellectual constructs have an "object" - the level that they are
> about.
> Those constructs also have a "subject" - the conscious intellectual
> entity (mind!!!) which perceives the pattern.
> It works beautifully for the inorganic, biological levels. IMO it also
> works for the social level (tho' I see some room for dissent here).
> However, it is problematic for the Intellectual level, because we get
> caught in a circle of self reference.
When I made these comments I believe I had misunderstood Roger's position as
saying that these other patterns were "really" Intellectual patterns.
However, in a subsequent conversation I believe we came to the point of
agreeing (with RMP) that the MoQ itself is an Intellectual pattern, but that
which it describes is not. Just as the map is not the road, the MoQ isn't
reality; it's just a better description of reality (that is to say better
than SOM). (Forgive me Roger if I've mangled your position but I think it's
pretty close to this, no?)
As for, "the conscious intellectual entity (Mind)"--- I see no need to
include this "impossible editor" in an understanding of MoQ--- (I'm sure
that's not what your suggesting, but stay with me here...). I think the
self referential "problem" with the Intellectual level only arises when one
mistakes the map for the road (or to be more precise, mistakes the MoQ for
reality). If we remember that the MoQ is only one of several "truths"
competeing to describe the same thing (reality) then there is no problem.
The MoQ is an intellectual pattern, what we call the "Inorganic" is an
intellectual pattern derived from "experience" that describes something that
is not an intellectual pattern, what we call the "biological" is an
intellectual pattern derived from "experience" that describes something that
is not an intellectual pattern... (etc) and what we call the "Intellectual"
is an intellectual pattern derived from experience, that describes--- (you
got it) intellectual patterns.
I think this agrees almost exactly with what you're saying--- but I'm more
comfortable leaving out the SOM in the explanation..., any thoughts?
it's all good,
Rick
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