Hi Jonathan and MD
On 28 Mar 2000, at 10:11, Jonathan Marder wrote:
> Horse brings up the TRUTH word again in its objective sense, to which I must
> give my oft repeated statement that TRUTH and REALITY are not the same.
No. I used the TRUE word. TRUTH (for me) is a whole other kettle of philosophical fish.
> As an example, the story of Little Red Riding Hood is REAL (it exists), but probably
> UNTRUE (it didn't happen).
The way I (and presumably Pirsig) was using the TRUE word was in the same sense as
above. Faith/Dogma (in the sense I indicated) would be believing the story of Little Red
Riding Hood even though I know it to be untrue (and if someone wants to argue about
whether Little Red Riding Hood is true - happened - or not - didn't happen - then be sure to
send me a goodly sized portion of the same drugs you're on).
> However, in answer to Horse, it might be better to
> use more value-laden stories as an example e.g. Aesop's Fables.
> I *believe* in those stories - NO, NO not that the hare and tortoise really had
> a race, but that the story presents a truth that transcends the plot.
It would seem that the TRUTH word is being (mis)used more by you than me. Remember
that for me the TRUTH word represents an absolute and you know my position on absolutes.
> Horse's truth of "confirmation and verification" only applies to a particular
> sort of objectified pattern extracted from the whole. When we objectify Aesop's
> fables, we end up with childish plots with little truth, but then IMHO what we
> have done is leave behind the real VALUE in those stories.
Aesop's fables and the 'truth' (your word, not mine) of the confirmation and verification of
scientific method are miles apart on the faith/dogma/belief scale. Note here that I do NOT
use the TRUTH word in reference to this scale. Confirmation and verification of/by scientific
method as an essential part of science and as such is of enormously high intellectual value.
Aesop's fables I see as much more indicative of social value. When you submit a report on a
particular piece of work that you have performed in your professional capacity do you submit
a nice cosy fable involving cuddly creatures or something that has a particular, acceptable
structure and an evaluation of the results etc. in line with scientific methodology. TRUTH is
unlikely to come into it, unless we're talking about contingent Truth.
> However, I believe that fables and myths can often be exploited to excuse
> "false" values i.e. values of low quality.
> Thus, what it comes down to is not an issue of True vs. False, but of True
> Values vs. False Values, or to put it another way, Good vs. Bad.
That seems much more reasonable. This could also be applied at the Intellectual level and
given the current state of the Creation/Evolution argument would seem entirely germane. But
please leave out out any references to TRUTH.
> HORSE:
> > Faith is very useful for maintaining social order and is often cynically
> > exploited by those with an interest in maintaining social order and it
> > is just this type of faith that has been eroded with the rise of intellect
> > as a dominating force (probably one of a number of reasons why
> > Darwin was so disliked by a social structure centred upon faith).
> Jonathan
> I conclude that Faith must ALWAYS be questioned, including faith in logic and
> science.
> Furthermore, any social order that denies the value of questioning is suspect.
I must agree with you here, but would say that Faith IS Belief that is unquestioned. All
beliefs must be continually questioned or they _become_ Faith and/or Dogma.
> The same should be applied to intellectual orders, but then I would say that
> the idea of an intellectual order than denies questioning is an oxymoron.
And anyone belonging to such an order, simply a moron :)
Be Good
Horse
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