----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Glover <DGlover@centurytel.net>
> Now it seems to me both questions are basically asking the same thing.
> If we say something is "real" then it is really part of reality. A
> person dying of thirst in the desert or freezing to death in the cold
> may experience vivid hallucinations and end up committing some very
> bizarre acts that hold no value in our agreed upon reality. And value is
> considered synonymous with Quality in the MOQ. Pirsig calls it the
> Metaphysics of Value early on in Lila. So how do we know value (Quality)
> is (equals) real (reality)? "By the harmony it produces." The dude
> swallowing sand in the desert may believe it is the nectar of the Gods
> he is drinking down but unless he receives some help very soon his
> harmonious life will end. There is no harmony in such acts.
<< Dan and all,
I know I have no reason bursting in like that but I will do it anyway.
What follows may be a bold statement...
Dan you wrote, there is no harmony is such acts, and that is very true, at
least
not right away.
But, like I see it, there is a BENEFIT, and you said it, the poor fellow may
experience vivid hallucinations and end up committing all sorts of very
strange acts that hold no Value in our agreed upon reality.
But there is Value and Quality, no doubt about that, though !
But not in the Reality where we agreed upon, at least not at first sight.
If the poor bastard dies alone and we will never find his body in the great
desert, nobody will ever know what his last thoughts were.
We can only speculate and just in doing that we create Value and Quality,
that is what Chris Lofting used to say...(literally) BEHIND the scene. There
is a
whole different world, consisting out of memory,sense of meaning, what/
where, a good deal of symbolism, metaphors,...in other words, the world
of the memes.
And those are working independent from our agreed upon Reality, they become
part of our Reality at the same moment we think about them.
The BENEFIT, works two ways, your way in supposingly knowing ( you
create Value and Quality this way) what the poor fellow thought at the
moment he died ( you know more this way, it brings out the best) and
secondly in
the way of the spreading of the memes (info), again there is Value and
Quality created, that is in other persons their minds.
Those memes propagate and become part of our Reality, which is then in
fact more accurate, in fact enriched with more (patterns of) Value and
Quality.
In the case of the HARMONY, there is some, like I said at least not right
away.
HARMONY, again in my opinion, can only come from different things, at
least two, being in balance.
In the scene of the man dying of thirst, what in itself can be considered as
a negative process, HARMONY and therefor Value and Quality is only
achieved by creating a WHOLE, that is putting together a negative pro-
cess and a positive one.
There is basically nothing positive at dying in a desert ( so negative)
unless
you will accept that the information outcome ( what we will ' know ' more)
of such a process is the second aspect ( here positive) needed to create a
WHOLE and therefor HARMONY.
But if we can consider this as Quality like Pirsig suggested I don 't know,
that is up to you to consider.
Let me know...
For more about Chris Lofting see www.eisa.net.au/~lofting/plate.html
Have fun,
Regards,
Kenneth
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