===== Original Message from Richard Ridge <moq_discuss@moq.org> at 12/12/00
9:04 am
>> And this is in an area where the much regarded Wittgenstein and my own
>favourite Iris
>> Murdoch have written books and books,
>
>How odd that you should mention that. I have recently read 'Metaphysics as a
>Guide to Morals' and noted that it has quite a few similarities with
>Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality - Murdoch takes her starting point by
>dissolving the distinction between ethics and aesthetics (as otherwise
>contained within the broader category of axiology) wherein art effectively
>becomes a Platonic form of good. Conversely, Pirsig commences by dissolving
>the distinction between aesthetics and ontology, returning to ethics in
>Lila. Has Murdoch been discussed much on this list?
>
>> [This is essentially the Wittgensteinian possition in the
>> Tractatus, where value is a "That whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must
>remain silent".
>> Similarly, in my veiw (and Murdoch backs this up), Wittgenstein's
>> Philosophical Investigations are an attempt to construct a picture of
>> language minus the Quality "whereof we cannot speak" which is the constant
>> spur to our active language use.]
>
>Or to put that in the terminology favoured by linguistics, minus the
>'difference.'
>
>>But do you think that it can actually get to the mystical? Or,
>>perhaps, is it rather the (flawed) attempt that counts and reveals: the
>>strain and effort of it?
>
>I don't think it can get to the mystical. Wittgenstein's attempt to strip
>language of difference/quality (or, for that matter, the similar endeavours
>of Tarski or Russell) is of limited value outside of his own thought. For
>example, the discovery of a group of deaf children in Nicaragua who had
>independently formed a grammatical system of signification, does a great
>deal to validate the existence of an innate (genetic) drive to form
>grammatical rules in language from a minimal input, but does little to
>determine how that impulse manifests itself under normal circumstances
>wherein the child is exposed to a fully-formed language. Similarly,
>difference is an inherent feature of language use - hypothesising conditions
>under which it is not present says little of language. To quote Rorty on
>Derrida:
>
>"Derrida thinks of Heidegger's attempt to express the ineffable as merely
>the
>latest and most frantic form of a vain struggle to break out of language by
>finding words which take their meaning directly from the world, from
>non-language."
>
>Or in this case from any transcendental experience - a particularly
>difficult case.
>
>> Thinking is not designating at all, but rather understanding,
>> grasping, 'possessing'. [EM p41]
>
>And so, in greek, the word poet means 'maker.'
>
>>Let's not forget, Pirsig wrote a novel not a philosophical treatise.
>
>I rather thought Pirsig was at pains to state that Zen was not a novel in a
>conventional sense?
>
>
>
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===== Comments by john.lawton@sjhsyr.org (John Lawton) at 12/12/00 9:24 am
I'm afraid that I am not familiar with Iris Murdoch. I'll have to look into
her works. However, I agree with you that poetry and language can not grasp
the mystical or DQ. Hopefully something of SQ. Derrida does chide Heidegger
often. But we seem to be revolving on the hermeneutical circle ( as some
call it) or the closure that language always cloaks our lives with. The
trick is to see we can not leap out of that circle but rather study it, play
with it, enjoy the "merry-go-round". Poetry celebrates language. Thought and
language can not somehow leap out of their own into the world. But here
even as I write it I see I'm falling into the very categories that I seek to
avoid. And Zen is certainly not a novel or poem. It is far simpler than
that. I agree.
John C. Lawton
Network Specialist
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