I think the emphasis from my perspective is that MOQ and the S/D emphasis
stems from the neurological emphasis on objects/relationships.
The S/D emphasis comes out of relational space; the space 'in-between'
objects. From a thinking context, the BEGINNING of thinking ALWAYS starts
with the individual and so an OBJECT perspective of SELF/NOT SELF (AKA
OTHERS).
Following the distinction of NOT SELF so all else emerges from zooming-in on
NOT SELF and differentiating; we move from object analysis to relational
analysis. This process leads to the distinctions of WHOLES, PARTS, STATICS,
DYNAMICS together with a set of distinctions all generally synonymous --
text/context, foreground/background, positive/negative etc
The point here is that the individual develops into a context already there,
it is not created at the moment of birth! Thus discoveries are not
necessarily 'new' but more expressed in DIFFERENT ways and that can create a
sense of 'newness'.
As we develop into this context and start to interact with it, relate to it
and in doing so our heuristics, our trials and errors, create a set of
probabilities rather than absolutes and that leads to a range of
particularisations and so choice and out of this choice develops quality
(for the individual -- the quality is not necessarily 'new').
>From an evolutionist perspective, good adaptions are the internalisation of
a 'quality' map of the local context such that individual and context work
together, are 'one'. Here you move from reactive to proactive behaviours --
but the price is becoming too local, becoming so specialised that you are
'frozen' in your specialisation.
A way out of this 'problem' is to look behind the specialisations, to look
at their structure and in doing so identify SAMENESS since the neurology is
basic to the species, localisations give differences in EXPRESSION but
BEHIND that is sameness and in that sameness are the patterns with which we
identify quality etc and analysis of the neurology points us towards a
better level of understanding that just sticking to 'pure' philosophy.
I have made some refs to some of Pirsig's comments (last one was on the
distinction of free_will/determinism which I pointed out was a
MIS-distinction in that free_Will deals with expression and determinism with
what is BEHIND it... thus free-will is 'real' but local. :-) no bits...
other comments re Pirsig were as above re the static/dynamic dichotomy etc).
Then there is the emphasis on modes of interpretations etc, this simply
requires particularisation in the form if asserting the MOQ as a mode and
from that deriving all of the patterns that relate to it simply derived from
the METHOD of analysis...
best,
Chris.
------------------
Chris Lofting
websites:
http://www.eisa.net.au/~lofting
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of skutvik@online.no
> Sent: Friday, 15 December 2000 7:57
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: MD EITHER/OR, BOTH/AND
>
>
> All MOQ Discuss.
> Chris Lofting started a most interesting thread that at first seemed
> to have profound MOQ relevance, but after a perfunctory reference
> to the Biological level (as the beginning of - the value/ability of -
> distinguishing between A/not A) he took off into a theory how this
> resulted in further distinctions which leads to the human theorizing
> (as well as a diatribe with the Elephant). All very well, but this is
> the MOQ and it the first level is the material world, so any
> development must start there ....at least continue from Bilogy to
> Society before ending up in Intellect.!
>
> If Chris' intention was to demonstrate the origin of the
> subject/object division it would have been fine, this is perhaps just
> right, but I have an impression that the SOM is his premise - as it
> is Kenneth Van Oost's "memes" and the many Quality alternatives
> that have been proposed throughout our career - all based on the
> presupposition that everything starts with life (as matter) which
> evolved to a complexity enough to produce thoughts - which IS the
> very subject/object metaphysics: A material world on which mind is
> the crown ..... or waste product for the materialist.
>
> There are exactly one million theories built over that theme, but
> Pirsig's isn't faintly resembling any of that. His assertion is that the
> metaphysical division is not matter/mind, rather dynamic/static and
> that existence is a rising order of static levels of which "matter" is
> the first. The basic postulate (Reality=Quality) is as such comes -
> either selfevident or nonsense, but we are supposed to explore the
> results of such a view. If it brings clarity it has proven
> itself, if not:
> Forget it! There can't be "some value" in Pirsig's ideas, it's either
> nonsense or revolution.
>
> Finally, may I remind you all that this is a site for discussing
> Robert Pirsig' ideas - or what may relate to them. The forum is
> unmoderated so no restrictions can be put upon the participants (I
> exploit its freedom for this little admonition). The most active now
> are of the highest intellectual and moral (!) standards, and I have
> the outmost respect for their education, enormous libraries and
> scope of interest, but I have the impression that Pirsig is receding
> in favour of other writers/thinkers of greater repute.
>
> Don't be cross with me, I would love to see Chris' thread woven into
> the MOQ fabric....and learn how Elephant's Murdoch harmonizes
> with Pirsig. The famous Pirsig-hunter Struan Hellier was a Murdoch
> admirer and that doesn't bode well, but I may be wrong ....
>
> If anyone has read this.Thanks!
> Bo
>
>
>
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