ELEPHANT TO JON AND GLENN:
I suggest that it isn't a problem with science per se, but with static
patterns in general. Prisig's worries about the ability of the scientific
method to get at the mystic truth open his mind to much broader concerns,
and that's why Prisig's criticisms aren't, in the end, directed at science
as such: they go wider.
Pzeph
> From: gmbbradford@netscape.net
> Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 23:24:56 -0500
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: MD Nose tweaking is such fun
>
> Jon,
> In your first post you explained why Pirsig was expelled from college:
>
> "It's all the result of [Pirsig's] problems with
> the scientific method. That's where it all started.
> All of it."
>
> Roger responded by saying that it's really not the fault of the
> method but people's over-extended expectations about the method's
> applicability outside the objective realm. To this you replied:
>
> "Pirsig's problem has never been science or even the
> scientific method."
>
> Either Pirsig has a problem with the scientific method or he
> doesn't. Let me see if I can capture the thread of your argument:
>
> It is the scientific method to blame for moral decay
> It's not the scientific method to blame.
> It's not really scientists to blame.
> It's not even science to blame.
> It's the comfort of technology to blame.
> It's a trickle down of objectivism to blame.
>
> Essentially it's our old nemesis, SOM, to blame.
>
> Well I said it then and I'll say it again: it always comes back to
> science. And here we are again. You end up admitting that none of these
> things about science are to blame, but let a few months go by and we're
> at square one again.
>
> What you started out with was a very pointed argument denouncing the sci
> method but what you end up with is something very vague, a trickle as you
> say. It sounds like you are trying to prove something like Reagonomics.
> It's all a telltale sign of a weak premise.
>
> Deep down perhaps your argument really translates into this:
> Something I don't like must be responsible for moral decay.
> I don't like science.
> Therefore science is responsible for moral decay.
>
> Is it fair to say that science isn't your favorite thing?
> My own scepticisms of science (and there are many) pale next to yours:
>
> "I still want someone to explain to me how science can be the most
> respected
> authority when it comes to the "search for truth" despite one of the tenets
> of science being there IS no absolute truth. According to science there is
> not one 100% proven airtight fact in existence. Not a single one. That's a
> bit disconcerting considering we're supposed to look for science to find
> truth."
>
> Logic, math, and at least the hard sciences actually get you somewhere.
> For example, the Earth, as well as all the planets and our sun, are round
> (not
> flat and not supported by the shells of an infinite stack of turtles). The
> heart pumps blood through your body (it is not the seat of emotions).
>
> Even Platt, who feels much the way you do, is compelled to read math and
> science because only these disciplines have the power to prove their own
> limitations (which he is so fond to point out), and no doubt he is on the
> alert for scientific results that might throw his metaphysical beliefs into
> question or even boost them. Science offers us the only solid footing we have.
> As Roger said in a post a month or so ago, MOQ must be at least consistent
> with accepted branches of science. Where there is disagreement, science is
> not
> in trouble - MOQ is.
> Glenn
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