Hello Struan.
STRUAN WROTE TO HORSE:
Your disappointment in me is matched only by my disappointment in your use
of every tactic other than philosophical argument to silence me.
ELEPHANT:
For the record, the 'tactic' of philosophical argument has been extremely
successful at silencing you. I asked you what you thought 'metaphysics'
meant (such that according to you SOM isn't a metaphysics) last month, and
you haven't replied to a single one of my invitations to explain yourself
since, either at MOQ discuss or privately. Neither have you addressed a
single one of my philosological discussions of Wittganstein, Ryle, Bradley,
Blackburn, etc, each of which I presented philosophical arguments against
your swift dismissal of Prisig's SOM diagnosis.
Any time you care to adopt the 'tactic' of philosohical argument I'm right
here and waiting for you. You can't miss me, I'm the large grey beast with
big ears and a dexterous nose, who smells acutely and doesn't forget.
Struan, what is 'metaphysics'?
Elephant.
> From: "Struan Hellier" <struan@clara.co.uk>
> Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 04:22:28 -0000
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Subject: MD Prodding and prodding
>
> Greetings,
>
> Horse,
> For the record, I reject your criticisms and will continue to respond in
> whichever way I please to insults directed at me, regardless of your
> displeasure. Your disappointment in me is matched only by my disappointment
> in your use of every tactic other than philosophical argument to silence me.
> First, straight contradiction, now a transparently hypocritical appeal to
> rules which are never applied to anyone else. When governments of any sort
> use their laws in such arbitrary ways (against dissidents, women, blacks,
> Jews, for example) they are guilty of discrimination and are quite rightly
> denounced by all reasonable people. With that in mind I find your stance
> offensive, cowardly and insulting to the best of human values. You should be
> ashamed of yourself and, if you are not, I shall be ashamed for you.
>
> Here goes another rule as I cross over between the MF and the MD with no
> qualms and two fingers stuck up to the establishment, Hurrah!!:
>
> BO on the MD:
> "While the S/O dichotomy split runs between mind and matter the
> QM split runs between dynamic/static, so at the static side no
> dichotomical abyss must be crossed. The static levels - from
> inorganic to intellect - is a UNITY, no interaction across borders is
> needed. Look at the spatial dimension for an analogue; discrete yet
> one, we move in all dimensions simultaneous."
>
> Bo, you seem to have forgotten that I (together with most of the rest of the
> world) am a monist. Mind and matter are a UNITY, no interaction across
> borders is needed. Why you have to continuously invent a problem in order to
> solve it I don't know. But let us go to the 'solution':
>
> BO on the MF:
> "The said brain-prodding experiment's seen in a Quality context
> (and in the dimensional light) is of course that (the patient's)
> biology transformed the inorganic (electric pulse) into social-
> coloured memories and that intellect decided that these were
> (subjective) memories and not (objective) happenings. A weaving
> through the four levels admittedly, but no time-consuming process."
>
> Firstly, I suggest that the rest of the world's solution - that mind and
> matter are one and the same, therefore if you 'prod' one, you also, by
> definition, prod the other - is more simple, more in accord with experience,
> backed up by science and just plain rational. By contrast, you have
> 'social-coloured memories', intellect deciding between subjective and
> objective happenings and a weaving through four levels. Specifically,
> 'socially coloured memories' worries me as it doesn't show mediation through
> the social level at all, unless you want to claim that memories themselves
> are social level patterns, rather than merely 'coloured' by the social
> level. Overall though, this is irrelevant as your 'solution' is, like all of
> Pirsig's solutions to invented problems, just plain convoluted and ugly.
>
> 3WD. I am not sure which points to answer as you yourself admit that your
> logic is shaky. That being the case, is there any point in me pointing out
> that it is, indeed, very shaky? Well OK:
>
> 1)I congratulate Pirsig (once again) on having brought philosophy to more
> people (with ZAMM) than any other author this century and he deserves to be
> well known for it. The old argument that I somehow resent this is crap and
> one of those continuous personal attacks upon my character which Horse
> couldn't care less about simply because it is directed at me rather than
> emanating from me. Or do the more subtle, yet equally vicious, attacks not
> even register? In any case this particular red herring does not deserve a
> longer response.
>
> 2) Strawson did not say that no-one holds Pirsig's position. He said that
> no-one holds a SOM. Read your critique with that correction and you will see
> it collapse.
>
> 3)A conclusion without the 'working out' is not a conclusion. It is a
> pontification and as such is worthless unless justified.
>
> 4) What do you care why I bother?
>
> 5) Your Rorty/James examples simply serve to show that many modern
> philosophers are concerned with how language relates to the world. Thanks, I
> knew that.
>
> Also for the record. I view philosophy as a adjunct to science, in the sense
> that it has a similar relationship to science as art criticism does to art.
> Science is undoubtedly the driving force and the foundation. Claims to the
> contrary simply misunderstand science and demonstrate only ignorance. (Diana
> used that insult without rebuke, so it must pass Horse's acceptability
> test - Phew!) Oh shit, that's let the cat out of the bag. Oh double shit,
> there goes rule 8 again. Twice. Bollox. Three times. . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> Incidentally, did you hear about the Buddhist who refused anaesthetic for
> his wisdom tooth operation. He wanted to transcend dental medication.
>
> Sorry, that wasn't relevant. There goes rule 2.
>
> Bugger it, I shall stop before I offend a few more Victorian sensibilities.
>
> Struan
>
> Struan Hellier
> <mailto:struan@clara.co.uk>
>
>
>
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