PROLOGUE:
PLATT: (previously)
Well, I've never seen for myself from a space ship that the earth is
round instead of flat, but would you deny that the statement "the earth is
round, not flat" is absolutely true as opposed to maybe true, based on
the testimony of many trustworthy sources? (Note I didn't say
'absolutely round,' nor am I quibbling about just how round or how flat.)
>
SIMON: (previously)
Yes, I would deny it.
PLATT:
Is that an absolute denial? Or a provisional denial? I ask because the
way you put it, it sounds absolute to me.
SIMON:
It is a denial of the absoluteness of your claim. Not an absolute denial,
just a denial. I'll try to elucidate a bit further down.
PLATT:
would you say the
world (round or otherwise) existed 3 million years ago before humans
saw that it exists? Now there's a philosophical problem for you. (-:
SIMON:
A philosophical question yes, problem perhaps, but not an obstacle. Allow me
to attempt an explanation.
DILEMMAS:
SIMON:
Pirsig grappled with dilemmas in his first, greatest book, and it appears
that I may have to do so here. If I deny absolutes then that itself is an
absolute statement and I'm skewered on one horn. If I accept absolutes then
I give in to a low quality conclusion which I believe to be wrong. The other
horn gets me.
So what can I do? Throw sand in your face? That appears to be what you are
doing as far as I can tell, and I have no desire to get caught in a
sand-slinging dialogue. Besides, if I could change your intuition by
throwing sand at it, it wouldn't really feel like I'd got my point across.
By making value a separate class from subjects and objects, Pirsig evaded
the bull. Unfortunately, I'm going to do the opposite, the only real option
given that our language is grounded in a subject/object form. By assigning
absolute to either subject or object, the bull runs straight through the
hole in the middle.
Subjective absolutes can be absolute. Absolute faith, absolute trust,
absolute belief.
Objective absolute can't. Absolute truth, and so on. But then again, that's
just my absolute belief.
Given that statements are statements of my belief, they may be absolute. I
make a statement that appears absolute, it can only be absolute according to
me. That's not to say that my belief isn't the absolute truth, but I can
never be absolutely sure about it.
Sound like everything I've written before? That's because I'm sticking by
everything I've written before. But before I continue, a sidetrack.
Earlier I accused you of throwing sand, by which I meant your use of the
words 'absolute' and 'certain' together. Firstly, on a pedantic note,
certain implies an absoluteness, it's like the phrase general consensus, a
consensus is by its very nature general. Likewise, a certainty is absolute.
Except when it isn't. Consider the following sentence:
"It is an absolute certainty that the sun will rise tomorrow." - attempt at
objective absolute truth - justify this certainty, I challenge you. All this
sentence actually says is:
"I am absolutely certain that the sun will rise tomorrow." - subjective
absolute and totally valid. Take this sentence apart and it says:
"It is my absolute belief that the sun will rise tomorrow."
So when I say that the world is not round, it is an absolute statement of my
belief, my absolute belief being that we can never know that we have arrived
at an absolute objective truth. My denial of the world's shape is not an
absolute and objective denial, but neither is it a provisional denial, it is
a subjective absolute denial. And as the terms absolute and denial together
carry with them an air of objectivity I have always found it easier to just
call it a denial.
Did the world exist 3million years ago? I have an absolute belief that it
did, but there can be no absolute certainty about it in the objective sense.
And before I get criticised of pandering to this subject/object dichotomy, I
will point out that this way of splitting absolutes gives a much more monist
solution that your single unification of absolutes. Your reasoning presumes
absolutes to be exterior to the mind, it neglects the role that the static
patterns we call mind play in creating those absolutes. I'm trying to place
the man counting the sand back on the beach. The externality creates the
stimuli from which the mind reasons/intuits the conclusions - without either
absolutes cannot exist. If the absolutes are the conclusions then the whole
idea of an objective external absolute is totally nonsensical.
SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE ME?:
PLATT(previously):
I'm beginning to wonder if you're absolutely certain you exist.
SIMON:
Notice your use of the phrase "you're absolutely certain" - subjective.
PLATT:
What a relief. (-: For awhile there I was debating whether I should
continue conversing with a non-existent entity.
SIMON:
Is it an absolute certainty that I exist, or are you absolutely certain that
I exist? From the stimuli that have been presented to you your mind appears
to have created an absolute belief in my existence. Yet it can never be more
than a belief that you have.
PLATT:
Otherwise, your thoughts just keep spinning around in
circles. Like, "Well, I'm not absolutely certain there are no certainties,
which means I'm not absolutely certain that I'm not absolutely certain . .
. ad infinitum. Somewhere along the line you have to put your foot down
and say, "This I'm absolutely sure of," even if it's the certainty that you
can never be sure of anything.
SIMON:
Nice of you to point this out to me, it is the easiest piece of your prose
to reduce:
"Well I'm not absolutely certain..." [which would be a subjective certainty
or lack thereof]
"...there are no certainties" [which would be objective certainties]
I'm absolutely certain [within myself] that there are no certainties
[without myself]
' "This I'm absolutely sure of"... [subjectively speaking] ... the
[subjective] certainty that you can never be sure [objectively] of
anything.'
So what I'm reacting against is your use of objective absolutes/certainties,
which by the very nature of absolutes can never exist. If I've
misrepresented your position then let me know, but what I was absolutely
certain of from your postings was a certainty in external absolutes.
Simon
"The king is dead, long live the king"
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