Rog, you took the words right out off my mouth.
> From: RISKYBIZ9@aol.com
> Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:59:02 EST
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Subject: MD Metaphysical User Manuals
>
> METAPHYSICAL USER MANUALS (previously known as "inside and outside")
>
> Hi Marco and Elephant
>
> A LITTLE STORY
>
> Once upon a time I bought a computer. I found the computer to be somewhat
> easy to use, but occassionally I attempted to do complex things with it that
> were not so straight forward and self evident. Luckily, the computer included
> a manual of instructions. This manual was an integral part of the product,
> especially when I needed to do advanced tasks.
>
> Why the story? Because my hypothesis is that much of the three year
> disagreement within the MOQ between the mystics and the rationals comes from
> one group (the mystics) constantly focusing not just on the product, but upon
> the product AND the set of instructions and warnings that come with the
> product. The rationals are comfortable with the base product and have long
> since discarded their manuals.
>
> METAPHYSICAL WARNINGS
>
> The mystics take very seriously the warnings against engaging in metaphysical
> explorations that Pirsig writes throughout the beginning and end of the book.
> He tells us that Quality is the central reality of mysticism. The fundamental
> nature of reality is indivisible, undefineable and unknowable. Dividing,
> splitting or abstracting reality into parts is a degenerate immoral activity
> that actually carries you away from reality.
>
> However, Pirsig offers that there can be certain value in dividing and sorting
> reality into conceptual patterns called metaphysics. Maps may not be reality,
> they may even distort reality, but the map building process can be valuable --
> especially if we remember that the map is not the reality it describes. By
> dividing and sorting reality, Pirsig builds a Quality-centered map of the
> universe.
>
> Marco, everything you say and quote regarding the MOQ is correct according to
> this metaphysical map. You rightly point out that Pirsig's first division is
> between Dynamic and static, and that he then divides the static patterns into
> four discrete levels, and he explains the emergence of the levels via a
> process of evolution of Quality.
>
> My only concern with your interpretation is that the MOQ map includes a user
> manual. And that manual has the following warning in it:
>
> WARNING!! THE MOQ DEALS ONLY WITH CONCEPTUAL MAPS OF REALITY, NOT WITH
> REALITY ITSELF. THE USER IS CAUTIONED TO REMEMBER THAT REALITY IS
> FUNDAMENTALLY INDIVISIBLE, DYNAMIC AND FLOWING, AND THOUGH METAPHYSICAL MAPS
> ADD VALUE, THEY ARE ULTIMATELY DEGENERATIVE PATHS THAT LEAD AWAY FROM REALITY,
> NOT TOWARD IT. IF YOU WANT A MAP, CONSIDER THIS ONE. IF YOU WANT REALITY,
> THROW THIS AND ALL OTHER MAPS AWAY.
>
> In my view, the warning in the manual is not incidental. It is critical to the
> value of the map. In fact is one of its best features, and it acts to
> separate the MOQ from prior maps.
>
> This is a long winding way to say that our disagreements seem to arise around
> the definition of the map. When questions arise, you and many other members
> of this forum go to the map and correctly answer that "According to the MOQ
> there are 4 distinct types of patterns or levels" [my paraphrasing].
>
> My answer is that you are correct, but that your answers apply to the MOQ's
> metaphysical map and not to reality. It is correct that the MOQ lays this out
> as a set of consistent possible divisions of reality. It is not correct to
> state that the MOQ actually says this about reality. In fact, considering the
> warning at the bottom of the map, it would be most correct to say that though
> the MOQ builds a high quality metaphysical map divided into four sets of
> distinct patterns, one must not forget that the map does not point toward
> reality, it points toward itself within the context of those that read it.
> Other maps exist, and each is measured on its value to explain and guide, but
> for reality do not look in the map. Instead drop this and all other maps and
> just experience.
>
> THE QUESTIONS
>
> Now, let me go to our two infamous questions:
>
> Q1) Are all patterns of value also intellectual patterns?
>
> A) Hmmmm, according to the MOQ map, there are four discrete types of patterns.
> So the answer must be "NO"..... Ooops, hold on a second, there is a warning on
> the bottom of the map. The warning is part of the map and it specifically
> states that divisions of reality and maps such as this one are "intellectual
> constructs." So the answer is that on one level "no," but from a broader
> perspective, every division and explanation on this map is intellectual in
> nature. So on the higher level, the answer is yes. The latter answer is more
> inclusive of all the information on the map.
>
> Q2) Were the 4 levels discovered or created?
>
> A) Within the metaphysical map, arguments could probably be built to support
> either view. However, the arguments would be moot, as reading the warning on
> the bottom of the map should remind us again that this entire map and
> everything included with it was created by Robert Pirsig. This and every other
> map should not be judged upon its single exclusive ownership of truth, but
> based upon its value as an intellectual explanation. Pirsig created a map of
> discrete levels. But he is not saying that reality fundamentally shares this
> property. In fact, he is saying that reality is dynamic, undivided and
> therefore it is NOT fundamentally built of these distinct separate patterns.
>
> SUMMARY
>
> Marco, I have avoided your specific questions, instead seeing more value in a
> fresh perspective on the issue. However, if you want me to, I will go back and
> address any specifics in your prior posts. Just let me know.
>
> Any and all input from anyone would be appreciated.
>
> Rog
>
>
>
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