Andrea,
The below email is a wonderful example of an individual who seeks difference
over sameness! One who seeks the uniqueness of the expression. For me, I
seek the patterns BEHIND the expression, the sameness out of which comes
differences!
So let me get this right.. You would prefer I dont reply since it in some
way upsets your train of thought!? Wow - censorship!!
The Paciderm asked about metaphor, what is it? etc I answered from a level
of precision not 'waving of hands' mode. To develop an MOQ you need
ordinality as well as cardinality. The cardinal deals with topology, the
distortion, the stretching, twisting etc; the emphasis on exageration of
harmonics to identify aspects of a whole.
Ordinality is required when you zoom-in to get the details and that includes
HOW metaphors are created, used, etc etc and from that perspective identify,
again with precision, the GENERAL patterns BEHIND metaphors such that you
can decode the metaphor quickly rather than spend years 'waving hands';
waving hands lacks precision, it is useful when there is nothing else but
when you have facts regarding brain and mind, to ignore those facts for
whatever reason is .........!!
Unless... you see mind as independent of brain!? ...do you?
BUT... there is an intuitive element in your post, namely that you pick up
the 'vibe' that science can 'kill' conversation and if you are more into
'waving hands' mode then you are more into keeping the conversation going --
not for the 'facts' but for the 'high', for the 'stimulation'. I see no
derivation of MOQ from that ... unless there is no intent to develop such a
concept, just a need to talk about 'what could bes' - an exercise in
topology? :-)
Some references re metaphors (from cognitive science but readable by all):
Fauconnier, G., (1997)"Mappings in Thought and Language" CUP
Lakoff, G., & Johnson, M., (1999)"Philosophy in the Flesh : The embodied
mind and its challenge to Western thought" Basic Books
Lakoff, G., & Nunez, R.E., (2000)"Where Mathematics Comes From : How the
embodied mind brings mathematics into being" Basic Books
Chris.
------------------
Chris Lofting
websites:
http://www.eisa.net.au/~lofting
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond
List Owner: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/semiosis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Andrea Sosio
> Sent: Tuesday, 27 March 2001 8:06
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: MD rogers metaphors
>
>
> Chris,
> You're saying something more radical than I meant...
>
> If everything is a metaphor, I guess that obviously means
> anything is a metaphor
> for nothing.
>
> As I mentioned in previous postings, I think your views are
> perfectly good to
> discuss brain workings, and as everything is possibly ultimately
> rooted in the
> brain, you will have no trouble to address whatever issue comes
> at hand. Still,
> if we have to talk about semantics, meanings, concepts - you just
> remap them on
> lower level feelings or whatever - and that will work, except
> those lower level
> feelings or whatever aren't really interesting if one cares for
> meanings and
> concepts, and they are not answers to any question. Like you
> reply to question A
> telling us what in our neurobiology makes us want to put the
> question at all.
> Interesting and probably correct - but this is no reply to the
> question itself.
>
> At least that's the feeling I get from your postings. Tho, I
> often like them too
> :)
>
> Andrea
>
> Chris Lofting ha scritto:
>
> > elephant wrote:
> >
> > > ROGER:
> > > > perhaps all we ever do is think and speak in metaphors.
> > >
> > > ELEPHANT:
> > > This is something I seem to change my ideas about from time to time,
> > largely
> > > because no-one can tell me definitively just exactly what
> metaphor *is*.
> > >
> > > Ideas?
> > >
> >
> > Analogy is 'X is LIKE Y' and there is an implication there is
> more to it,
> > unlike simile. Metaphor is X described in terms of Y to a degree where X
> > 'is' Y.
> >
> > Metaphor is always approximation, even if down to the 17th
> decimal point!
> > When we use mathematics to describe things then we are using
> metaphor. All
> > maps are metaphors in that once we create the map so we use it
> to interprete
> > and predict but that act forces us to see 'out there' through the map --
> > metaphor, reality is described in the terms of the map.
> >
> > MOQ is metaphor, mathematics is metaphor, the I Ching is metaphor... and
> > they all have something in common, they all have the same underlying
> > structures and relationships that reflect our neruological/cognitive
> > processes at work. That 'fact' allows us to make analogies across
> > disciplines very easily.
> >
> > Metaphor shares the same space with metonymy where metonymy is to the
> > particular what metaphor is to the general.
> >
> > The process of induction, where we move from particular to
> general causes us
> > to make maps -- aka hypotheses, theories, models etc etc These
> are based on
> > our experiences where we particularise from general sensory processes.
> >
> > As we build the map so we switch from local, reactive behaviours to
> > proactive behaviours. The proactivity comes when we start to
> use the map to
> > predict and this in turn speeds-up development BUT it also
> forces us to live
> > through metaphors -- the maps. ... and yes, language too is a map.
> >
> > BTW Karl Popper did not like induction, for him it required too
> much of a
> > leap in faith but modern science has gone to reduce that leap,
> although it
> > is still there but maybe just at the Planck distance, 10^-40 metres...
> >
> > >From neurology/cognitive science research, metaphor processing
> shares the
> > same space in the brain as processes dealing with cardinality,
> topological
> > processes including object-to-context relationships.
> >
> > Chris.
> > ------------------
> > Chris Lofting
> > websites:
> > http://www.eisa.net.au/~lofting
> > http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond
> > List Owner: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/semiosis
> >
> > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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> >
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>
> --
> Andrea Sosio
> RIM/PSPM/PPITMN
> Tel. (8)9006
> mailto: Andrea.Sosio@italtel.it
>
>
>
>
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