To Jonathan
>From Rog
JONATHAN:
I confess, that I too am a socialist - I've been that way inclined for as
long
as I can remember.
ROG:
Yea, I remember. I was hoping you would join in. (and I still need an
explanation of Horse's Libertarian socialism, but I can't seem to incite him
to join in to the depth I was hoping)
JON:
I value ideals like equal opportunity, equal rights etc., and I detest
disparity of rights and opportunity. As far as I am concerned, the free
market
is fine as long as it doesn't produce too much disparity - AND THE SAME THING
GOES FOR SOCIALISM. I also value the ideals of MAXIMIZING opportunity and
rights - any economic system that stifles them is BAD in my book.
ROG:
Read "The Moral Sense" by J. Wilson. In it he clarifies research that shows
that morals such as fairness, duty and sympathy have both biological and
social aspects (nothing contradicts the MOQ btw). The interesting part for
me was on research into peoples views of equality and fairness. He reveals
how there is a spectrum of fairness that ranges from fairness of outcome to
fairness of opportunity. Obviously there CAN be a huge variance between the
two, and this creates a tension between people at different points on the
spectrum, or even creates internal tension over competing values. (btw
youngsters, women and collectivists are statistically more on the equal
outcome side, while men and capitalists tend to go more the other way.)
As I have already commented, I am a big opponent of exploitation in any
shape. The fact is that gross disparities of power -- such as in free
enterprise -- can result in an environment for exploitation. This needs to be
carefully controlled with other social safeguards.
On the other hand, socialist restrictions on maximizing success violates my
sense of equal opportunity (rewards commensurate with contributions). In
addition, in a central command economy, someone must be empowered to decide
who gets how much. This is imo the biggest unchecked threat that can exist,
and is very prone to exploitation.
JON:
I have no trouble in finding plenty of support in ZAMM and Lila for my
pro-socialist bias. Roger, Platt and others have demonstrated that Pirsig's
ideas can also coexist with their own socioeconomic views.
HAD IT BEEN OTHERWISE, SOME OF US WOULD HAVE THROWN THE MOQ AWAY!
ROG:
The major issue to me is the sheer dynamicness of free enterprise. You have
the ability to see an opportunity and immediately invest in it or get people
to invest in your idea. You can shift from one industry to another as
opportunity and tastes change. You can create what you want, when you want
it (assuming you want to sufficiently).
Socialism I see as static. It protects moribund old industries, attempts to
control dynamic values from the imperfect position of central command, it is
bureaucratic, resistant to change and resistant to sharing power with other
than itself. (If you have not read Jared Diamonds' "Guns, Germs and Steel"
you may miss what I am saying here. It deals with the danger to society of
suppressing innovation)
JON:
I think that Pirsig's comments on Soviet Russia are close to the mark, but I
don't think that makes him anti-socialist. The MoQ gives several reasons why
Russia's socialist economy collapsed, but it also explains why Russia's new
capitalist economy is disintegrating even faster!!!
ROG:
Russia is the poster child for imbalanced exploitation. Their enterprise is
not free at all. I support well regulated free enterprise, not the mafia.
JON:
It's a pity that Diana has left us, because she made a very short penetrating
statement on the very issue that has generated all these recent posts.
ROG:
Diana was the true master of the short and penetrating post. (and I bet you
she IS READING THIS!!)
JON:
So in her absence, I'll let Diana have the last word:
"On communism and capitalism.
There is room for Dynamic quality in both systems if they are practised
with care. . . ."
ROG:
Is there? This is kind of a no argument. She could just as well say "child
abuse has room for DQ -- if practiced with care...."
In the past 15 years I have seen an incredible disavowall of socialism in the
US and in many emerging nations. I think economists, politicians and people
in general are no longer as willing to keep betting on a losing horse. I
suspect the jury is already in on this issue. On the other hand, I sure want
people to experiment with new economic ideas.
Rog
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