Well the MoQ Discus group will surprise you. A Libertarian-Socialist?
Hmmm... Sounds more like a Socialist with Libertarian ideas.
As a card carrying Libertarian and activist I think I better stand up.
I find it hard to believe that those that tout the MoQ could advocate
Socialist principles. The examples of Socialism that I have seen don't
strike me as very dynamic forms of government. The MoQ subscribes to
Empiricism, what does history say about how socialist states act toward
their citizens freedom? About how Dynamic their societies are? One of the
reasons Libertarians think that people should be freed from the constraints
of government is because the government doesn't have a very good track
record of 'taking care' of people. Oh yeah 'Arbeit macht Frei', for when
you really care.
Socialism exults Social static patterns over dynamic Intellectual freedom.
Socialist tax policies control an individuals economic life and hence limit
their resources and choice of activities. Wouldn't it be a shame if Newton
couldn't afford the paper to write down his ideas? Think that's crazy?
Talk to a Russian. (Hayek in 'The Road to Serfdom' makes this case very
persuasively and he wrote that in the late fourties.)
Weren't the Nazi's the National 'Socialist' German Workers Party? How would
you describe Joseph Stalin? And good old Chairman Mao couldn't be called a
Libertarian could he? It could happen here. "Defend your freedoms or you
won't have any" seems to be evident from history. Even if you think the
label Socialist is unfairly applied to these groups you must agree that
there haven't been any radical Libertarian dictators causing world wars and
killing off large segments of their population. None.
The Libertarians Party does not advocate taking drugs. The Libertarian
Party does not advocate suppressing individuals who choose to take drugs
with the force of government. The 'War on Drugs' is a very dangerous and
bad idea. One of the charges leveled against the Waco people were that they
were running a meth lab. Yeah right. Keeping substances illegal only fuels
the black market and contributes to violent strife between illegal
organizations. When was the last time your local Miller distributor pulled
a 'drive by' on the Heineken distributor? Probably during prohibition.
These people deal in a physically addictive substance just like heroin but
because they have the protection of the law do not need to engage in violent
behavior.
People that think gun control works are just very badly misinformed in my
opinion. I challenge anyone to produce a good study that supports the
premise that more people die each year from accidental gun shooting than are
saved from by gun owners defending themselves against aggression. Gun
control does work, just ask Hitler.
I here a lot of talk about 'Freedom'. Everybody seems to be for it, but
usually what people mean is allowing others the freedom to believe the same
things they believe. This is not freedom and it's not dynamic. It's not
the static intellectual patterns that you see Quality in that need
protection from the force of government it's the ones you don't.
I'm getting a little long winded and apologize.
AreteLaugh
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of RISKYBIZ9@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 07:04
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: MD True Libertarians Please Stand Up
To: Horse and The Economic Debate Group
From: Rog
HORSE:
As a Socialist I believe that the state is required to provide and maintain
a
number of
services and provide certain functionality. This includes but is not limited
to the judiciary,
military, utilities(electricity, gas water etc.), health services, transport
infrastructure, education
system and welfare/benefits system system. The Socialist state should act
for
the benefit of
it's members, contrasting with the Fascist state which acts for the benefit
of industrial
concerns. I don't believe that the state needs to own all of the means of
production but
certainly a sufficient amount to ensure it's ability to provide basic
services and functions.
As a Libertarian I believe that individuals have certain rights which are
not
subject to
interference in any form by the state. Free association, freedom of
expression, freedom of
speech etc. The individual can speak and act freely whilst ensuring that
certain actions do
not harm the Social base or other individuals - drink driving, drug
addiction
acts of violence
etc. - although if the individual chooses to harm itself, then in many cases
this is pretty much
acceptable. I do not believe that anything goes and that the individual
should be completely
unrestrained - except in intellectual terms where, in line with the MoQ,
this
is the case.
So as a Libertarian Socialist I would have thought that my position is
fairly
clear and
corresponds with the MoQ. The state provides the basis for the Intellect to
flourish as it
manifests itself in the individual whilst controlling the biological aspects
of the individual. The
individual can behave freely without fear of reprisal or censure as long as
it's behaviour does
not harm society - with the exception of intellectual activity.
ROG:
Thanks! I think what you are describing is pretty much what is called a
liberal or leftist in the US. But I may be wrong. Below is a website that
allows us to score ourselves on a libertarian scale. I just did it and
scored a strong libertarian in both economics and personal liberty. I
believe you would score well on personal liberty, but less strongly on
economics. Why don't you try it and see where we compare. Platt, Marco,
Clarke, Andrea etc please join in.
http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html
Rog
PS -- More info below
*******************
What does your score mean?
The personal self-governor score measures your tolerance for people who have
differing ideas of health, love, recreation, prayer and other activities
that
are not measured in dollars.
A high score shows you have tolerance for different people as long as they
are peaceful and don't force their ideas on others.
A low score shows you want your standards of morality, safety and health to
be enforced by political government.
The economic self-governor score measures your personal responsibility as a
producer and consumer, how you support your family and how you use your
money.
A high score shows that you value responsibility and believe that
free-market
competition is better for people than central planning by government. You
tolerate variation in economic success, as long as people who acquire wealth
do so by honest production and trade, not by theft, cheating or political
pull.
A low score shows that you believe a good society can happen only when your
standards of wealth distribution are enforced by political government.
http://www.self-gov.org/libfaq.html
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