Rasheed, Maggie, and emotive moqers
> Marco,
>
> i like your three branches of the intellectual division idea. the only thing
> i wonder about is how morals are incorporated into the spiritual and
> emotional level.
Actually, I was not referring to emotional/artistic and spiritual/mystic
knowledge as separated moq *levels*. Rather, to different forms or expressions
of the intellectual level. Another expression is, in this scheme, rationality.
> when you say 'build a bridge,' are you just referring to
> the bridge to the next static evolutionary latch?
Not necessary. More generally, I was talking of the eternal need of *building*
human beings feel.
> and do these three concepts share the same level, or can any
> of them be considered higher than another?
As said, I do prefer to consider them as belonging to the same level. I repeat
that I don't like very much all this rush to find a fifth level. When RMP talks
of a "code of art", he doesn't point to a fifth level at all. He says:
«Finally there's a fourth Dynamic morality which isn't a code. He supposed you
could call it "a code of Art" or something like that, but art is usually thought
of as such a frill that that title undercuts its importance. The morality of the
brujo in Zuni - that was Dynamic morality». (Lila, Ch. 13)
Over intellect there's only a Dynamic morality. I understand that the Dynamic
morality is to be an artist: "do it well", simply. Anyway, if ever in a very
remote future there will be a fifth level, from that viewpoint this Dynamic
morality will be possibly seen as static. In this case, I'd say that art is a
good candidate to be the *most moral* intellectual pattern. Of course, this is
futurology.
> I say this because it's my personal belief that on the biological
> level, humans are above beetles and the like because of reasons that have
> been argued about before. that said, your idea helps me with a few of my
> own problems, mainly that i've been wondering how emotion fits into the MOQ.
You see, IMHO in order to have a *level*, many necessary conditions must be
fulfilled. Mainly, a new level is created using a pattern of the below level as
*code*. If we put art or spiritualism *over* an *only rational intellect*, I
really can't imagine what rational pattern can be the code of spiritualism.
About emotions, I agree with Maggie:
> I think EMOTIONS occur when there is biological influence on social
> patterns.
>
> As a general rule, we don't notice social patterns. Humans exist in
> social patterns of value. (As Lila is the "judge" in the book. Our
> social patterns are the basis from which we judge everything else.)
>
> Emotions seem to be "new" personal social PoV's that are formed in
> response to a biological interaction.
>
Of course emotions are biological. When my cat purrs, well she's happy. What
else? And yes, I agree that emotions arise mainly (I'm not sure *only*.... )
within a social context. I also add that one of the duties of the social level
is to repress emotions: screaming "I love you!" in a crowded movie theater is
embarrassing.... even if it's true. Actually, truth is not social.
By the way: even thought is biological.My cat thinks. She's intelligent.
Probably less than me, and even less than a dolphin, but we are discussing
quality, not quantity. As well as for emotions, another duty of the social
level is to lead thought to social purposes.
As Maggie points out:
> The part Brian noticed, the intellectual component, is also a crucial
> factor, because as humans our AWARENESS of these emotions takes place
> on the intellectual level.
Yes, we are aware of our thought and we are aware of our emotions. This happens
at the intellectual level. Few months ago, Platt provided this definition for
art, from the American Heritage Dictionary:
" ART 1 (a) The conscious production or arrangement of sounds,
colors, forms, movement, or other element in a manner that
affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the
beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium. (b) The study of these
activities. (c) The product of these activities; human works of
beauty considered as a group. 2. High quality of conception or
execution, as found in works of beauty, aesthetic value. "
As you see, art is a *conscious* production (with all the limitations of
consciousness, of course). It affects the sense of beauty. Let me add that it
investigates, generates and communicates emotions. Talking of a
emotional/artistic expression of intellect, I was not meaning that emotions are
intellectual; I was just saying that intellect, by means of art, tries to
investigate and produce emotions.
Ciao
Marco
p.s. to Gerhard:
many thanks. I don't re-open the socialism/capitalism thread as it's too recent.
And there are too capitalists :-)
"The worst deaf is who doesn't want to hear"
(Italian proverb)
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