Sam,
Although I don't disagree with you on your main points in your last post
about the need to utilize some sort of low level restraint when it comes to
individuals who are behaving violently, I feel the need to disagree with
your statement, "And the fact that it IS young men who cause the vast
majority of the problems is just one of the reasons for thinking that it is
a biological problem (hormonal overload)...". It's really unfair to blame
the problem of violence in young males so largely on hormones. I know many
teenage males who would be classified as "violent", and I know very few who
don't act violently because of social issues, issues of race and class, as
well as issues with the school system itself and the police themselves.
That is, they're saying "I see something wrong with the system, and this
system has not provided me with any tools to change it legally. My voice,
as a teenager (or a female or an African American or a person in poverty
or...) will not be heard, unless I make it heard." Hormones play little
part in it, and the part they play involves the methods they use, not the
reason for action. These "social controls" only make the problem worse. A
lot of the trouble starts when these "social controls" are applied to people
who don't need them in the first place, people who are not a social threat
but who find their intellectual freedom threatened because someone thinks
they are. Teenagers who look like drug users, who look like gangsters, who
look like anything can and will be pulled off the street and into police
departments. I've seen it done. They're almost always released
immediately, because they've done nothing wrong. You've misdiagnosed the
problem in suggesting that it's hormonal, and have suggested a solution that
can only make the problem worse.
>From: "Elizaphanian" <Elizaphanian@btinternet.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>Subject: Re: MD Real Libertarians Please Stand Up
>Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:01:32 +0100
>
> > Sam wrote:
> > > The point being that violence begets violence; even if there arise
> > > situations that leave us no alternative but a violent response, those
> > > situations have come about because of poor judgement, mistakes or
>plain
> > evil
> > > intent earlier on in the process. The only way to make things better
>is
>to
> > > stop the cycle of violence escalating, and work towards
>reconciliation.
> > > Personally, I don't think the widespread presence of firearms helps in
>the
> > > endeavour.
> >
>And Glen responded:
>
> > A question; Do you think the state would have been correct in
>interviening
> > when the gang of people was trashing your friend? The mainstream media
>in
> > the US is curiously silent about the people who successfully defend
>their
> > homes and person with firearms. All the media does is popularzied the
>rare
> > wacko who shoots up a McDonalds or school. If you can't differentiate
> > between a group of criminals (biological vs. social) and disident
>college
> > professors (intellectual vs. social) maybe you should re-read Lila (Lila
> > Chapter 24).
> >
>
>Sam responds:
>The substantial question Glen raises is about the role of the state. There
>is a significant degree of "teenage tension" in my area (to put it in
>nostronger terms), and I was recently discussing the situation with one of
>our local police officers. He commented that the police have to rely on a
>certain level of 'social control' - in other words the informal restraints
>exercised within a community by those with authority. (This is called
>social capital by some theorists). The real way to deal with the situation
>that my
>friend encountered is to ensure that it is less likely to happen in the
>future - through better education, a higher quality (= more moral)
>upbringing and the freedom for local groups to have some measure of
>authority in their own areas. My view is that what has really caused the
>great increase in violent crime etc has been the state getting involved in
>all aspects of violent conduct. As there are now strong laws against any
>form of physical aggression (eg against smacking children) there is no
>longer any means of developing self-discipline in young men growing up.
>(The
>specific example I was discussing was related to an immigrant community,
>whose teenage sons were causing problems and bringing their community into
>disrepute. The elders of the community wished to take their own measures to
>enforce good behaviour but it was illegal in this country (the UK)). And
>the
>fact that it IS young men who cause the vast majority of the problems is
>just one of the reasons for thinking that it is a biological problem
>(hormonal overload) which requires, at least in part, a biological
>solution,
>meaning the exercise of physical restraint. Without those low level
>biological controls the situation is bound to escalate, and where firearms
>are present, people will be killed. This question about firearms isn't one
>that can be neatly reduced to biological v social against intellectual v
>social. I am not a complete pacifist (as my comment in the earlier post
>should have made clear) but I do put a high value on human life. Where
>there
>are firearms widely available then conflict is more likely to have a fatal
>outcome. To look at it purely in MoQ terms for a moment this diminishes the
>resources available for the intellectual level and is therefore a low
>quality environment, it is one in which the potential to move to higher
>levels and experience DQ etc is diminished. The situation is therefore more
>nuanced than you have appreciated (as a close reading of Lila would have
>indicated ;) )
>
>Sam
>
>
>
>
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