Hi Denis, John, Platt
Denis wrote:
> I have one last problem with the term "Quality", that might be the cause
of
> your misunderstanding of value. It is the good/bad axis on which Quality
> imprisons value. Value can be much more than good or bad, which is one of
> the reasons why I rejected Pirsig's "rational morality".
>
> Value can be anything our language has an adjective for, and then some,
> IMHO.
>
> It makes no sense to believe that things are judged only on a good/bad
axis,
> and to ignore everything that isn't concerned with "morals" in the classic
> sense. If you've seen the film 'Rain Man', where Dustin Hoffman played an
> autistic man, you might remember the scene where a girl kisses him and
asks
> him how it was. In a complete reversal of Pirsig's "good dog" scene, he
> answers : "Wet."
>
> This isn't an invalid answer, and it isn't an intellectual one like the
one
> Pirsig expected about the dog. It's a perfect answer about one of the
> judgments you can pass on a kiss : it can be good, but it's also wet, and
> warm.
Our senses won't let us ignore "everything that isn't concerned with
morals".
The kiss may be wet, or the stove may be hot, these are just descriptions,
not Values.
Would you say that getting a kiss from someone you're attracted to is a
quality situation? Or that someone is a quality kisser? The kiss may display
many characteristics "wet, warm etc", but it is still either of high quality
or not.
Going back to your example, it's intereseting to note that autistic people
rarely demonstrate emotion, their static social patterns of value seem to be
unformed (or atleast, underformed). Yet some of them, like "the rain man"
have extraordinary abilities in the arts (music, painting) or mathematical
field. It seems to me, that inspite of or because of their underdeveloped
social and intellectual SPoV, they are somehow tapping straight into the DQ
and it is manifested through them. Interestingly, it appears that by
nurturing their innate abilities, they grow in their social and cognitive
skills.
This struck me as I was reading your example, and I probably should put more
thought into this as time permits...which it doesn't at the moment!
Victoria.
----- Original Message -----
From: Denis Poisson <denis.poisson@ideliance.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: MD Self, Free/Determinism : a short essay (again... ;)
> Here follows the rest of John Beasley post :
>
> >Artistic and moral quality evolve. Probably intellectual quality (truth)
> >also evolves. The lure of quality is the lure of the next stage of
quality,
> >measured from where I already am.
>
> I am not sure I can follow you there, except if you mean "quality", not in
> the sense of pre-intellectual awareness, but of judgment of value. You
see,
> the problem I've always had with the choice of the term "Quality" for
> pre-intellectual awareness is that "quality" implies a judgment, not
> necessarily a rational one, or even an intellectual one, but a judgment
> nonetheless. While I agree that the universe is constantly passing
judgment,
> it is *not* made of judgments, but of value. Value is then judged (mostly
> differently) by different patterns of value. Judgment is the interaction
of
> patterns, not the patterns themselves.
>
> So the judgment evolves, but the value, intrinsically, stays the same.
Just
> because you do not have the necessary maths to understand an equation
> doesn't make it meaningless.
>
> [snip]
> >And each of us in our development moves through a sequence in
> >which what is valuable (dynamic) is just beyond what we currently have
come
> >to value in a more static sense. Mostly these sequences of value follow
> >patterns that are fairly predictable, but sometimes not. Sometimes the
> >dynamic value comes from an unexpected quarter. Like the guy who sees his
> >hand with wonder and delight while recovering from his heart attack.
> >
> >What I am currently interested in is how education is a process for
> >facilitating the appreciation of value. (I'm writing another long boring
> >essay which I may one day inflict on the forum.) Value is relative when
it
> >is applied to the social and intellectual realms, and arguably not so in
> the
> >biological realm. And I still fail to grasp how value impinges on the
> >inorganic realm at all. I think it's just an imposition for the sake of
> >theoretical niceness.
> >
>
> This last point I must disagree with. Value is "recognized" by atoms just
as
> much as by organisms. Mass, positive or negative charge, potential
energy,
> kinetic energy, heat, what do you think these are if not "values" ? The
> inorganic realm recognize inorganic values just as much as the social
realm
> recognize social values.
>
> I have one last problem with the term "Quality", that might be the cause
of
> your misunderstanding of value. It is the good/bad axis on which Quality
> imprisons value. Value can be much more than good or bad, which is one of
> the reasons why I rejected Pirsig's "rational morality".
>
> Value can be anything our language has an adjective for, and then some,
> IMHO.
>
> It makes no sense to believe that things are judged only on a good/bad
axis,
> and to ignore everything that isn't concerned with "morals" in the classic
> sense. If you've seen the film 'Rain Man', where Dustin Hoffman played an
> autistic man, you might remember the scene where a girl kisses him and
asks
> him how it was. In a complete reversal of Pirsig's "good dog" scene, he
> answers : "Wet."
>
> This isn't an invalid answer, and it isn't an intellectual one like the
one
> Pirsig expected about the dog. It's a perfect answer about one of the
> judgments you can pass on a kiss : it can be good, but it's also wet, and
> warm.
>
> Be good
>
> Denis
>
>
>
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