Hi, Victoria,
I'm starting to enjoy those little debates again. ;)
So, just a short answer about your criticism of non-positive/negative
values.
>Our senses won't let us ignore "everything that isn't concerned with
>morals".
Exactly, which is why I believe it is part of this pre-intellectual
awareness that we call Quality.
>The kiss may be wet, or the stove may be hot, these are just descriptions,
>not Values.
Hehe ! I love to see that my hunt for the "just" word has brought down
another prey... ;)
*Just* descriptions ? Do you mean by this that these characteristics aren't
worth our attention, like SOM saying something that what's *just* in our
minds isn't as real as their vaunted *objective* facts ? I would hate to
replace a cultural blind spot by another. A metaphysics is only better if it
enlarges our conceptual perception of reality. "Wet", or "warm" is just as
real as "good" or "bad", and might hold precious information.
On the hot stove example : sure the guy doesn't jump out of it because it's
hot, but because it's low value. But he would have done the same if he had
sat on a porcupine, wouldn't he ? Do you mean to tell me that the difference
between 'hot' and 'spiky' is unimportant ? That, in some way I confess I do
not understand, this isn't included in his pre-intellectual awareness of the
situation ?
I'm sure you understand now what I mean by saying that concentrating on the
positive/negative axis is restrictive, and not in accordance with
experience.
>Would you say that getting a kiss from someone you're attracted to is a
>quality situation? Or that someone is a quality kisser? The kiss may
display
>many characteristics "wet, warm etc", but it is still either of high
quality
>or not.
Yes but it is *also* wet and warm. Why should we ignore these informations ?
I think in his quest to understand the origins and importance of morals,
Pirsig ignored the fact that value is multidimentional, and that when your
rubb your hand across a surface, the good/bad feeling isn't the only
information that reaches you. You also get a feeling of its texture, for
one. That didn't fit in his "Quality" scheme, so he ignored it, but it
doesn't mean we should do the same.
As organisms designed for survival and evolution, we do have a tendance to
fit things into good/bad boxes, since it allows us to make pragmatic
decisions, and to choose according to a perceived maximum positive value.
But other dimensions of value exist.
What I agree with, is that evolution runs parallel to that positive/negative
axis, and that therefore Pirsig was right to talk about it in relation to
moral conflicts. But without forgetting that this is ultimately a
restrictive view that could becomes as soulless and blind as SOM
materialism. That, I believe, is the crux of John Beasley criticism of the
MOQ : that blind and ruthless search for "betterness for betterness' sake".
As a system (Pirsig rational morality), it can be as blind and stupid and
soul-grinding as any "rational management" is.
This world is chaotic. You don't survive in it because you follow a system,
even one based on Quality, but because you follow Quality itself. John is
right, it's the path that's important, not the destination.
>
>Going back to your example, it's interesting to note that autistic people
>rarely demonstrate emotion, their static social patterns of value seem to
be
>unformed (or atleast, underformed). Yet some of them, like "the rain man"
>have extraordinary abilities in the arts (music, painting) or mathematical
>field. It seems to me, that inspite of or because of their underdeveloped
>social and intellectual SPoV, they are somehow tapping straight into the DQ
>and it is manifested through them. Interestingly, it appears that by
>nurturing their innate abilities, they grow in their social and cognitive
>skills.
>This struck me as I was reading your example, and I probably should put
more
>thought into this as time permits...which it doesn't at the moment!
I know the feeling ! ;)
And quite frankly, I do not have enough information about autism to hazard a
MOQ explanation of it, so I'll leave it at that for the moment.
Seeya
Denis
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