Platt, Bo,
one of the ideas of Bo has always been that the MOQ is a groping fifth level, as
it's able to *contain* the SOM, while the SOM is not able of containing the
Q-idea.
I've already refuted this point, few months ago on the other forum. I wrote (to
Bo):
<< In fact, Bo, when you argue that it's impossible to put the MOQ idea within
the logic as it's impossible for a box to contain itself, you are just using
logic! So, if you also are inside the box, how can you talk about what's
outside? This is only apparently a paradox: the image of the "box" is valid
only (maybe) at the inorganic level.
For example, the "Desktop" of my PC contains all the software, the
"c:\windows" directory included. In it, I find that the desktop! I can map
my hard drive in many ways, and all the ways can be good maps. You could say
that my Desktop contains only "links" to the real objects.... but also these
"real" objects are links to something that is in some way supported by the
hard disk. And if you go more and more deep to study this phenomenon, you
can only find an incomprehensible array of "0" and "1".
Is Windows magic? No. Is it illogical or irrational? (Yes, but not for
this:-)
No, it's simply that when you leave the inorganic level, you can't
apply the same logic that is perfect to build bridges and airplanes. It is
so for the social level, as Pirsig claims about anthropology, and even more
it's so for the intellectual level >>
In few words, I think that if we claim that we can *see* the SOM, while the SOM
is blind to us, and thus we are on a superior level, we are just hyperbolizing
our intellectual patterns. We can well describe the SOM, and the SOM can well
describe the MOQ (as Struan demonstrates), on our respective (inevitably
failing) viewpoints. IMHO the SOM-MOQ struggle is completely intellectual....
and we are not still winning.
Bye
Marco.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 10:44 PM
Subject: MD Meta-Level
> Hi Bo:
>
> A series of quick questions for you to consider, engendered by these
> two passages from your post of 15 Aug:
>
> > D'accord! Also, in ZAMM P. says that we tend to forget the
> > enormous time span between the last caveman and the first Greek
> > philosopher. Tens of thousand of years when prehistoric man both
> > spoke and figured out complicated theories of origin and
> > destination. But there was none who said: "Is this objectively true
> > or just a subjective myth". The last is Q-Intellect - not language as
> > such - and the final showdown was the Age of Enlightenment
> > (Science vs Church).
>
> > Precisely! Yet no level "recognize" any development above itself.
> > Intellect will be S/O for ever, and resist any deviation. Isn't that
> > exactly what we watch at this forum: Intellect trying to make the
> > MoQ toe its line? Intellect (Reason) is the highest good, but not the
> > end of the line. We won't become irrational if transcending it, no
> > more than we can become disembodied or asocial.
>
> My question is: As a general principle would be correct to state that
> whatever we recognize and give a name to, such as "subject" and
> "object," can only be accomplished from a level higher than what is
> recognized and named?
>
> In other words, is it correct to assume that the existence of a meta-
> intellect is necessary in order for us to recognize and discuss Q-
> intellect (reason)?
>
> If so, doesn't this suggest that we are already capable of operating at a
> higher level than SOM and do so whenever we intellectualize about
> intellect?
>
> The reason I ask is a growing supicion on my part that we Pirsigians
> may already be on a higher level than the Intellectual. Or, perhaps
> more likely, my ego has expanded to encompass an even larger
> sphere than usual.
>
> Platt
>
>
>
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