Hi Roger, Wim and Rasheed,
I think that despite the disagreements, we are all speaking the same
language.
WIM
<<<
In an earlier posting I suggested that a lot of reactions to the
terrorist attacks (mainly by Americans of course, but also of others
who feel their way of life is attacked) are part of an ancient social
pattern of value of retaliation in kind or even pre-emptive violence
from one society against another society. "That will teach them never
to do that again!" I don't agree with Jonathan (16/9 13:50 +0300) that
pre-emptive violence is better than retaliatory violence. Both are part
of the same social pattern of value that dates from a time when people
couldn't see that the world is a whole and that humanity is essentially
one society. The response to crime on a local as well as a global
scale should be justice and setting up a political system that protects
everyone, not retaliatory or pre-emptive violence by the victims and
reinforcement of an outdated political system of autonomous nations
pretending to be separate societies that can harm each other without
-earlier or later- harming themselves.
>>>
Wim, I don't specify that pre-emptive action necessarily has to be
violent. On the contrary, one should try and be extremely smart and act
early as a way of AVOIDING greater violence. Tardy pre-emptive action is
an oxymoron! It is already too late to save the World Trade Center, and
too late to start friendly chats to dissuade Bin Laden from his
murderous actions. I'll come back to this . . .
ROGER:
<<<
Interestingly enough, the most successful model of this type of
situation
identified by game theorists in non-zero sum games (where you can
cooperate
or compete) is Tit-for-Tat. It has been shown in theory to be superior
to
all other strategies at encouraging cooperation and supressing
exploitation. ...
>>>
This is indeed depressing. It underlies that old axiom "speak softly,
but carry a big stick".
RASHEED:
<<<
But, you accusing some
countries of being evil because Muslim children danced in the streets at
the
US bombings just shows that you are the victim of a biased media.
Yasser
Arafat was the first of any world leader to express remorse for what
happened. This should have been the image of Palestine. But instead,
the
media chose to focus on the children dancing, just to piss off Americans
(and
from the looks of it, i think it worked pretty well). The kids don't
know
any better, they are taught to hate the US.
>>>
Rasheed, I continue to identify with a lot of your thinking. I
sympathize with your dislike for the shameful scenes in some countries,
with children (and adults) celebrating the WTC bombings. However, it is
naïve to distance those misguided people from their countries and their
leaderships. Yasser Arafat is quite simply a hypocrite. It is no
accident that thousands took to the streets in Nablus to cheer the WTC
bombers. The Palestinian leadership has harnessed this hate for years,
and continues to do so. Evidence of this is ubiquitous in their
schoolbooks and media. Of course the kids know no better - that is the
tragedy.
Furthermore, the message of hate emanates even from some Mosques - not
only in Palestine, but also in Europe and the USA. I hope and pray that
this represents a minority view, but even so, it is a problem, a tragedy
for Islam. Bin Laden is just the tip of this very dangerous iceberg. The
wisest pre-emptive action should be to dissolve this iceberg.
Unfortunately, the hand that the free world has reached out is
traditionally a patronizing hand. It is counterproductive to give Muslim
kids money so that they can wear designer clothes, drink coke and sit in
MacDonalds eating halal hamburgers.
However, it is also patronizing to tolerate hate. I bring this up
because we have heard too many cries "The USA is Satan, the USA must be
destroyed". Not every Imam who says this is a WTC bomber, but those
words can no longer be tolerated. That greatest of liberal values, "Free
Speech" is something that needs examining. Free speech without
responsibility is a great danger. I am perhaps one of the few Israelis
who still supports the idea behind Oslo accords of 1993. I believe that
this was a brave attempt to advance the peace process at a breathtaking
pace so that the momentum would overcome the obvious obstacles. That
momentum was broken in 1995, when Yitzhak Rabin was murdered by a
political assassin. The murderer was locked up, but the thousands who
chanted "Rabin is a traitor, "Rabin must be stopped" - well they are all
still around. I believe that they have now learned that words too can
kill.
Thus, back to Wim, the pre-emptive actions needed today include violent
actions to eliminate any immediate threat, and peaceful but forceful
actions to forge constructive relationships between all countries and
peoples. This war is perhaps bigger than any of us can imagine.
Jonathan
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:01:31 BST