> Hullo Sam and all,
Hi John B (and all),
> Perhaps we do not have a great deal to disagree about.
I trust not...
>....Groups like 'Sea of Faith' probably represent a
> post-church response to the Christian ethic, and while I find their reason
> for existence less than convincing, I respect their concern to find a form
> of faith that allows intellectual honesty. But this is not new. John
> Robinson's 'Honest to God' filled this role back in the 60s, and Bishop
> Spong does much the same today.
I should say at this point that although I was influenced greatly by John
Robinson (and I've been taught by Don Cupitt at Cambridge) I'm much more
'orthodox' than they are, broadly because they accept the secular
representation of Christianity (and hence jettison it) rather than the more
dynamic interpretation which I think Wittgenstein's understanding of
philosophy allows. Spong IMHO isn't up to it, intellectually (although I
quite admire him as a person). They all still function within the Latin post
12th Century understanding of Christianity, which is much more academic and
less mystical than the patristic (early church) and contemporary Orthodox
understandings.
> However, my perspective is that 'religious'
> faith as such is today challenged as never before by a resurgent
> spirituality that draws on the mystic tradition.
I don't think that there is anything around today that wasn't around in the
first three hundred years CE, there was a phenomenal variety of religious
expression at that time and lots of searching - and orthodox Christianity
was formed against that background. To my mind the biggest challenge is that
the background framework of life has changed out of all recognition - the
challenge is to tell a story that makes sense within our modern world.
> If you read 'What Really
> Matters - Searching for Wisdom in America",
Who is the author? I'll investigate it.
> ...what stands out for me is how
> little of mainstream religion is even mentioned by Tony Schwartz. Matthew
> Fox, Spong and Funk, to mention just a few prominent American churchmen,
get
> not a mention.
(I should say that they are by no means representative of 'mainstream'
theology, even if they are prominent)
> ....To my mind,
> and again I am drawing on your presentation of Wittgenstein, there is a
lot
> in common between theology and metaphysics. Both are concerned to provide
a
> structured explanation of the mystery of existence.
Very much so. Wittgenstein elsewhere compares metaphysics to a form of
magic, which keeps people spellbound. I would compare it to poetry. Either
way, it doesn't count as a form of science - but that doesn't make it any
the less valid. I think they count as - to use the postmodernist's phrase -
metanarratives, the overarching explanations within which everything else
makes sense. These aren't established by logic, but by enlightened emotion.
(I'll come back to that in another post)
>... Pirsig, sadly, follows this tradition,
> though with a metaphysics.
I think Wittgenstein sees all metaphysics as degenerate, if they are
intended to provide philosophical (as opposed to theological) answers. Not
sure I agree with him though - it requires more thought.
> .....I can only agree wholeheartedly, while noting that mysticism is a
much
> broader phenomenon than the Western variety you point to here.
Fully accepted - I was (consciously) still in Christian mode. As it happens
the first religion/philosophy I ever got deeply involved in was Taoism,
through quite a serious study of jiu-jitsu at school; and of course Pirsig
is reasonably good (if not 'accurate') about Zen as well. It's also true
that not all mysticisms are the same.
> A form of words for "bodies which represent
> social-values-but-enhance-intellect"? I would nominate 'open community'.
That's very much along the lines I was thinking of - open vs closed. We'd
need to work a bit more on it though.
Cheers!
Sam
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