Hi Rog, thanks for this. I've been holding off responding simply because I
agreed with most everything you said. Bit dull really. But I have been
following the MF stuff as well. Who knows, I might even get a chance to post
something before too long.
Cheers
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: <RISKYBIZ9@aol.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: MD MOQ, Wittgenstein and the philosophy of love
> To: Sam
> From: Rog
>
> SAM:
> Perhaps we could agree on a form of words that would distinguish between
> those bodies which represent social-values-but-repress-intellect and those
> bodies which represent social-values-but-enhance-intellect. I would argue
> that there are churches that fall under both categories - and indeed
secular
> bodies which fall under both. On the religious side, one option is to
> distinguish a religious community from a faith community, but there are
> difficulties with that. I would be interested to hear what other people
> think on this.
>
>
> ROG:
> Well said! As you know, we are touching upon a related thread in the MF
> forum this month. I think explorations into the nature of freedom and
types
> of freedom can lead to a similar distinction in social bodies or patterns
of
> value. I am drafting two posts for that forum on this angle. I will try
to
> avoid repeating any arguments here, but my thoughts are as follows:
>
> 1) Social patterns of value need to be both stable and adaptive. I
believe
> Pirsig uses the analogy of a ratchett. Successful patterns must be able
to
> lock onto that which works, yet must be dynamic and versatile enough to
> explore even better solutions or new solutions as the world changes. I
think
> a lot of the problems with older social patterns is that their stability
has
> gotten in the way of their dynamicness.
>
> 2) Social patterns, and religious patterns specifically, attempt to
control
> and direct behavior. In a way, they can be said to limit freedom by
> encouraging certain behaviors and by discouraging others. (btw, they can
also
> create and enable new freedoms too) I believe some religious and secular
> patterns take the limitation of freedoms WAY to far. In fact, I believe
some
> have been converted into a means of exploitation to control people for the
> benefit of religious (or other) leaders at the expense of the believers
and
> at the expense of society in total.
>
> 3) An interesting case study on the issue is available in Christianity.
> Catholicism, as practiced in the 16th century, discouraged individualism,
> pursuit of knowledge, and direct access to God. The conduit to behavior
and
> direction was the church. Protestantism was a retaliation to this system
of
> values, which encouraged individuals to learn to read (the bible) and to
> actively pursue higher values with no intermediaries. Lots of scholars
argue
> on the point, but a case can certainly be made that one set of social
values
> leads nowhere (meaning society and culture stays where it is), while the
> other contributes to the development of science, enlightenment, democracy,
> the industrial revolution and free enterprise. (Yes, I just read "Wealth
and
> Poverty of Nations")
>
> 4) I believe, to oversimplify, that those social/religious values that
> restrict and discourage harmful activities (stealing, lying, cheating,
having
> children without being able to support them, harming others, etc) are
> valuable, and those that restrict potential (encouraging illiteracy,
> requiring conformity, limiting the potential of women, suppressing
creativity
> and novelty, making one wear silly hats,etc) are invariably destructive.
>
> Feedback is welcome. Be sure to see my posts in the other forum too,
> especially on the essential nature of freedom.
>
> Rog
>
>
>
>
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