Wim Nusselder writes to Platt Holden
> I also owe you a reply to an older posting: that of 11/10
> 13:32 -0400.
Platt has already replied so I will not interfere with their
differences, I recognize many of Platt's objection, but also say that
Wim impresses me with his general level of knowledge. Even if he
is a bit dismissive regarding Pirsig's words he is so in a most
constructive way. The history lesson ( 21 oct.) was very interesting
although the reason behind the Netherlandic wealth - or USA's for
that matter don't fully convince me, but then these matters are a bit
beyond me. I can only say that I believe that classical economics
is as faulty as the rest of SOM's "disciplines" and in need for an
update. We may return to that. Huh?
After this introduction let me address one single aspect of Wim's
above post to Platt which interests me particularly:
> ..........................................................It is in the nature of
> things that biological, social and intellectual patterns of value
> defend themselves against lower quality biological, social and
> intellectual patterns of value (and beat them) with respectively
> biological, social and intellectual means.
If I understand it correctly you mean - for example - that the higher
biological patterns (organism) defend themselves against the lower
ones. OK, I don't deny it, but I hope you don't mean the
doctor/germ example because "doctor" in this context is an
intellectual/social aggregate. May it be that it is the biological
immune apparatus you have in mind, and if so you are right: the
means of destruction are biological.
Now, Pirsig postulates an immune system for all levels and this
seems to back your assertion that a higher/lower pattern struggle
takes place all over the Quality spectrum, but (it sounds like)
Pirsig's idea is that the respective immune systems only reacts to
attacks from the level below (as in the robber/cop example where
the robber is supposed to represent biological value), while the bio.
system attacks another organism as eagerly as a wood splinter in
our flesh. May it just be that the respective immune systems
attack ALL "non-self" entities? but always (as you say) by the
means of its own level.
Back to the robber/cop example. You seem to mean that a
criminal don't represent biological value rather a lower social entity
and if so I tend to agree, but your statement ....
> Social patterns of value don't defend themselves with biological means
> (warfare, police force, any threat or punishment),
... is a bit confusing. I would rather say that (to the social level)
..warfare, police force etc. ARE social means, after all the police is
"law enforcement". Even capital punishment is a social means, the
fact that the execution results in death doesn't mean that biological
value is involved ...on its own premises. Even warfare is politics
with other means according to ....Bismarck??
> Pirsig was wrong when He stated in Lila ch. 24 that
> "The instrument of conversation between society and biology has always
> been a policeman or a soldier and his gun." Social patterns of value
> and biological patterns of value don't converse at all,
As said I tend to agree with you that a criminal gang is a social
structure - more "social" (more basic) than the state which is deply
intellect-influenced. See how splendidly the MoQ explains the
observed facts: A Western/Democratic state isn't a pure "society"
and have this criminality problem just for that matter, while a more
primitive - pure society - isn't so hampered. No, Biology and
Society don't converse on equal terms, but the upper level strives
to control the lower so an interaction takes place.
> Do you let yourself be tempted to follow my thoughts and to allow the
> MoQ to migrate towards Dynamic Quality or do you still want to conform
> strictly to the static pattern as set by the Word of Pirsig?
When you accuse Platt of conforming strictly to the static pattern
as set by the word of Pirsig I guess you by "static" mean static
intellectual? But then where will ...allowing the MoQ to migrate
towards dynamic value ...lead to? Look. Allowing dynamic
migration at the matter level did lead to life, which in turn lead to
societies ...etc. so, a dynamic migration (of the MoQ) at the
Intellect will necessarily lead to ......my long-fought-for idea that it
must be seen as a 5th level of itself. Only from there will it be free
from its SOM-cum-Intellect heritage.
Thanks for a most interesting post. I like your "free" application of
the MoQ which shows that you see its immense scope.
Bo
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:01:34 BST