Denis and fellow logicians.
You (>) said to me (>>):
> >This time I appeal to you to examine this point thoroughly.
> So, that is the big crunch?
> The MOQ is (as the name indicates) a metaphysics, which defines a set
> of "things" that include an intellectual level, in which resides
> metaphysical systems, and therefore the MOQ itself resides in it. Big
> logical loop and headaches forthcoming...
Thanks Denis for taking such trouble to address these subtle
points of the MoQ. I think we have reached a point of understanding.
> First, I'd like to point out that the MOQ isn't a part of *itself* but
> of the intellectual level, which is a part of Static Quality, itself a
> part of Quality. So, the MOQ isn't "a part of itself" ; or you would
> have to add that I am myself, and France, and this Earth and the whole
> solar system, parts and parcels of the MOQ (since it also defines
> social, biological and inorganic levels). That would clearly be a
> ridiculous claim since the MOQ only came into being somewhere between
> 1974 and 1991, when Robert M. Pirsig, american author, first thought
> it up.
Provided I understand you properly the fact that the world is part of
the MoQ poses no problem, as said that goes for all all-
encompassing systems which in turn have made everything part of
itself and reshaped the past and the future. If we consider the
stone-agers they had an explanation for the origin and destiny of
everything, but with the shift to monotheism, a new explanation
took over and changed the world into a creation of God. Finally the
SOM-inspired scientific explanation changed the word into a purely
chance thing, but no one said that this was "a ridiculous claim"
since modern science came into being quite recently. And if the
MoQ claims that everything is a value evolution it poses no logic
violation ....it's always a question of a more credible explanation.
But the MoQ as an intellectual pattern would be the same as a
believer of a religion said that God came to be in the (last chapter)
of the Bible, which is exactly what the sceptics claim. OK, you say:
> the MOQ isn't a part of *itself* but
> of the intellectual level, which is a part of Static Quality, itself
> a part of Quality. So, the MOQ isn't "a part of itself"
You distinguish between the MoQ and Quality (DQ?) IOW that
Quality was before Robert Pirsig and merely inspired him to write
the MoQ? Much like God inspiring the prophets to write the
respective Scriptures?. Well, I may be forced to reconsider, we
have arrived at the same position from different directions it seems.
Hope some Grand Unification Theory will report soon, at the
moment my head is spinning ....as Ken Clark used to say :-).
> Second, you'll remember that the MOQ defines Dynamic Quality as "the
> Conceptually Unknown", the surprise, the glitch in the machine. I
> agree that we can think about things that are not clearly defined,
> notions like "the mind" or "Destiny" or "Nirvana", that are left vague
> and imprecise. But the "Unknown" ? Like zero in mathematics, the
> Unknown only defines an absence, not a "thing" in the ontological
> sense. Therefore, it is only logical to say that the MOQ DOES NOT
> INCLUDE EVERYTHING (and is therefore different from Quality). This
> precision was (I think) needed to avoid the confusion you seem to make
> between the MOQ (as a supposed new level) and Quality.
If I accept the first one, I may as well swallow this camel :-)
> It also sheds a new light about the properties of metaphysics in the
> largest sense. Metaphysics are maps about what we know, and in the
> MOQ, DQ represents the blank spaces at the borders where the only sign
> is "There Be Dragons", the places where no one has ever gone. I'd like
> to add that the MOQ was the first metaphysics I've read that DID
> include such a blank space. There's something to say about humility,
> here...
If I for a moment were to resume my SOLAQI heresy I would say
that all levels once were the "metaphysics" of their era. They were
not "maps about what we (humans) know", but what EXISTENCE
at any time knew. Once it only knew Inorganic Value, next it knew
Bilogical Value ...etc .. until it knew all these values included
Intellectual Value (=subject/object-metaphysics). Today this tiny
group has started to know (existence from) the Quality
Metaphysics ....but this sounds a little megalomaniac so I don't
say it :-)
The rest of your treatise I will have to print out and study some
more. Until then
Au Revoir!
Bo
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