Dear John,
Look at what you are saying here:
<<My comments in brackets>>
In a message dated 11/15/01 10:09:07 AM GMT Standard Time,
beasley@austarnet.com.au writes:
<< Subj: Re: MD Moral development
Date: 11/15/01 10:09:07 AM GMT Standard Time
From: beasley@austarnet.com.au (John Beasley)
Sender: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
Reply-to: moq_discuss@moq.org
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Wim,
Wilber has set out his 'twenty tenets' in Ch 2 of 'Sex, Ecology,
Spirituality, which represent 'patterns of existence' or tendencies of
evolution' or 'laws of form'; though he does not claim that these are
'eternal laws', but rather 'relatively stable habits of the universe'. A
number of these pertain to your question about how levels are discriminated.
Please recognise that I am trying to condense some twenty pages of fairly
intricate reasoning in a few paragraphs.
<>
1 Reality as a whole is not composed of things or processes, but of holons,
wholes that are simultaneously parts of other wholes, and it is holons 'all
the way down', with no upward or downward limit.
<<A holon is an intellectual postulation. The postulation is itself a thing.
If it isn't a thing it must be a holon.
Postulations, either described as holons or things do not contain atomic
holons for example?
So that's that!>>
2 Holons display four fundamental capacities: self-preservation (whether the
mere preservation of agency over time in an atom, for example, or the
self-renewal of a cell - both display a relatively autonomous and coherent
pattern which is preserved over time), self-adaptation (in its capacity as
part of some greater whole, to register or react to its environment),
self-transcendence (Whitehead's creativity, Prigogine's symmetry breaks -
the arising of something new in the formation of the new holon, not
deducible from the lower level holon) and self-dissolution (a sort of system
memory which comes into play if holons are broken down).
<<The term 'time' is being supposed here is it not? 'Over time?' This smacks
of causation and that is a no-no.>>
3 Holons emerge. New holons posses properties and qualities that cannot be
strictly and totally deduced from their components. 'The high-level law
cannot be stated in the vocabulary of the low-level description'
(Hofstadter). This implies indeterminacy. 'We live in a universe of emergent
novelty' (Popper)
<<Hang on? But there is a blatant contradiction here:
'New holons posses properties and qualities that cannot be strictly and
totally deduced from their components.'
Well, contrast that with:
' ... thus the morphogenetic fields of molecules restrict the
possible number of atomic configurations which would be expected on the
basis of calculations which start from the probability structures of free
atoms.' (Sheldrake)
That sounds like a basis for description at a lower level to me!
And what's this about 'embracing' when you suggest limitation of
configurations?
Surely this supports Pirsig's 'largely opposes' for heaven's sake man!
4 Holons emerge holarchically, that is hierarchically. Each deeper or higher
holon embraces its junior predecessors and then adds its own new and more
encompassing patterns or wholeness. 'The many become one and are increased
by one' (Whitehead). 'Reality, in the modern conception, apears as a
tremendous hierarchical order of organized entities, leading, in a
superposition of many levels, from physical and chemical to biological and
sociological systems. Such hierarchical structure and combination of systems
of ever higher order, is characteristic of reality as a whole and is of
fundamental importance' (Bertalanffy) [The parallel with Pirsig is
unmistakable, but note the 'embraces' where Pirsig would say 'largely
opposes', and the 'many levels', where Pirsig claims only four.]
Pirsig does not claim only four!
He suggests four discrete levels - but that does not imply each level
categorised by discretion does not have subtle sub-levels?
And there may be a zeroth, fifth, sixth, etc. we know bugger all about!
5 Each emergent holon transcends but includes its predecessor(s). 'At each
level the fields work by ordering processes which would otherwise be
indeterminate ... thus the morphogenetic fields of molecules restrict the
possible number of atomic configurations which would be expected on the
basis of calculations which start from the probability structures of free
atoms.' (Sheldrake)
<>
6 The lower sets the possibilities of the higher; the higher sets the
probabilities of the lower. My body follows the laws of gravity, my mind
follows other laws, such as those of symbolic communication and linguistic
syntax; but if my body falls off a cliff, my mind goes with it.
<<This is nonsense.
The atoms comprising me set no restrictions upon my literary skills.
Literary skills have nothing to do with atoms, although i can spell the word!
Sorry mate, but this is garbage!
As for gravity having the better of atoms! Atoms, 'Largely oppose' gravity
when used by organic patterns!>>
7 The number of levels which a hierarchy comprises determines whether it is
shallow or deep, and the number of holons on any given level we shall call
its span.
<<Now you are taking the piss.>>
8 Each successive level of evolution produces greater depth and less span.
There are always fewer molecules than atoms.
<<Fewer molecules!!!!!!!
Aristotelian quantification!
Have you any idea?
Any idea how many possible organic Carbon based molecules there are alone?
And many of these are isomorphism's! Allotropes, etc!
Can you not distinguish between the quality of molecules and the quantity of
atoms?>>
In addition, the greater the depth of a holon, the greater its degree of
consciousness. The spectrum of evolution is a spectrum of consciousness.
Holons do not simply reflect a pregiven world, but according to their
capacity, they select, organize, and give form to the multitude of stimuli
cascading around them. Holons translate their reality according to the
patterns of their agency, and stimuli that don't fit the deep structure or
regime are simply not registered and might as well not exist (in fact, do
not exist, do not disclose themselves, for that holon.)
<<Is, 'Patterns of their agency' not a holon then Beasley? You've just told
us reality is holonic, (colonic in my view of Wilber)! I assume patterned
agency is a holon or has holons or what the blazes!>>
While Wilber goes on with more tenets, these seem the most relevant to
discriminating the levels.
<>
Regards,
John B
>>
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