Hi Denis,
DENIS:
In fact, for us it often seems like the US is almost schizophrenic in its
love/hate relationship to its country. Sometimes it's the best place on
Earth, and then an FBI building goes up in flames ...
ROG:
Your comments lead repeatedly (and imo correctly) to this schizophrenia. I
offer that the US is a non-equilibrium system. Its checks and balance,
competitive/cooperative, creative/destructive, centralized/decentralized
nature makes it extremely dynamic. It evolves over time in ways good and
bad, but it is not as stable as many other places. (I am not arguing that
the US is the only non-equilibrium country, just that it is more extreme than
most)
DENIS:
France is in many ways a defective democracy, that's for sure. But quite
frankly I cannot think of a really effective one (except perhaps Holland,
and even that would be stretching it : too much organized crime here).
ROG:
Every society is imperfect. The question of course is which choices lead to
the highest quality overall, both socially and intellectual. I think it is
easy to argue that Holland or Canada or Great Britain have their strengths
and weaknesses. My guess is that each of these has a few ideas which are
better than the others (I use ideas in a broad fashion that includes any
social solution, institution, policy, etc) at least in some contexts. Overall
though, if there is any social system better than Western
liberal/capitalistic/democracy it has not done well at making itself clear.
However, I join Marco in celebrating and exploring the diversity of social
solutions both within prevailing western social patterns and without. (My
guess is that the best place to look for new social improvements is starting
with the best, but evolutionary theory shows that this, though wise, can lead
you into dead ends.)
DENIS:
Which, I think, is why foreign people resent you so much. We see a
dysfunctional society, ridden with crime, wanton violence and social
injustice which still insist on imposing its model everywhere... That's not
the best way to get yourself loved, no ? Imagine what the orderly Chinese
must think about it...
ROG:
But it is imminently functional and dynamic even with its ideosynchrocies. It
is not the most orderly. (And lets not get into the distortion that liberal
Europe loves to illustrate of America. You probably know quite well that our
justice system is probably as fair as any, and more fair than most, and that
crime and violence though careening out of control partially as a side-effect
of our freedoms and social policies and slavery past has dropped -- ie
improved -- for something like 20 years straight) You are right that we are
the antithesis of orderliness and prone to problems through our dynamic,
creative nature. The question is whether it is more of a strength or a
weakness. I could also offer that as is true of dynamic systems in general,
their dynamic nature is what leads to them actually surviving and continuing
long after other nations atrophy and decay. Ours is the longest surviving
model, and by a long shot compared to the average.
I think much of the frustration with the US comes from people applying a
centralized, command model to what is really a much more diverse and
distributed control system. The US is not Bush or the military or the CIA or
Hollywood or Silicon Valley or Wall Street or main street; it is all of these
and more. And not only don't the parts all work in the same direction, they
aren't even intended to.
DENIS:
My point. Still, I believe it can be traced back to the fact that Americans
are of mixed origins, and that building a stable society from so many
disparate ethnic sources required a STRONG social element of cohesion. Thus,
the emotional and moral appeal of the Constitution replaced the traditional
cultural ethnic identity with an intellectual and moral one. Still, many
people are blocked at the social stage and make the confusion I described in
my previous post. For them, the principles behind the Constitution need not
apply at anyone else but them. They still see the world through
nationalistic glasses and not intellectual ones. They prostitute the ideals
to the social level.
ROG:
Good point about the social cohesion factor. You are right that most people's
views are very... primitive or undeveloped or non-inclusive. Wilber writes
about this factor quite a bit.
Thanks for the discussion. I will just end by stating that America's
perceived weakness is actually its only true strength.
Roger
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