Hi, Omar,
I'm glad to have you on the list ! I travelled to Egypt last September (I
was there during the WTC tragedy), and I loved the country. But I disagree
with you on many points, as exposed below.
>1. War
>
>First, some window washing...
>
>I'm somewhat perplexed at the notion, expressed in even the most
>reasonable posts, that, somehow, the 'west' is 'intellectually
>superior', and that the Islamic value-system is Socially Based, and on
>those grounds 1) Inferior and 2) Antagonistic.
Well, I cannot speak for anyone but me, but my position is not *that*
brutally disparaging of the Middle-Eastern world. I'll even quote myself on
this :
"Let's remember here that, while the Intellectual level SHOULD rule [in
democracies], due to SOM's inate defect in identifying values, it is fast
losing ground to the social level (according to Pirsig, but I agree). All
too often we Westerners go around posing as morally superior to everyone
else [because we live in democracies], while in the background it's the same
old song of social exploitation that's been going on ever since man invented
societies stable enough to go past the level of mere survival. So we get the
moral advantage only through a tenuous hold, and it would be best to
remember that before rocking the boat too much."
OTOH, that a democratic rational philosophy is vastly superior to any
dogmatic religious system of belief is, IMHO, totally obvious, and beyond
question. On the social level, a democratic system is better than a
theocracy, which itself is better than a dictatorship (in the sense that a
rule by customs is better than a rule by brute force, but not as good as a
rule my mutual consent). I can only hope you agree with this.
>
>That just doesn't carry. Even when it's masked with the notion of
>Islamic 'fundementalists' - that word never seems to relate to the
>'Fundementals' of any religion - it's a misnomer. And I ignore it.
Wahhabism, the brand of Islam preached by Bin Laden and his ilk, is clearly
socially-oriented. It is a legalist interpretation of the Coran, and laws
are all about social patterns. While it is not the only possible
interpretation of Islam, it is the one that has been discussed and
criticized on this forum. And I, personnaly, believe it to be a clearly
inferior brand compared to, say, sufism (which leans more toward the
mystical interpretation).
>
>Anybody who, through will, or neglect, causes death is an asshole, not a
>moslem, and not a xtian, and not a buddhist. He's barely human, and not
>much of one at that.
Through will, yes. But neglect ? That has many possible interpretations,
some of them leading to unfounded accusations, which reek of simple racism.
Beware.
>As for history, well, the notion that the west holds any monopoly
>whatsoever on intellectual activity is just laughable. The technological
>superiority is clear as day, but tech is not intellect. The only current
>superiority I can honestly see is one of technique, not of reason. I
>can, but choose not to, go over countless examples of intellectual
>achievement by Arab and Islamic individuals. The notion that
>individuality is undervalued is simply...well, unread...
The items discussed were *social* patterns and whether or not they supported
the moral supremacy of the intellectual patterns. To date, only democracies
do so (and most of them are Western). Of course, each and every human is
composed of all four levels, and those in which the Intellectual is
prevalent span every race and culture. But that goes without saying (I hope
;).
>To a lot of Americans, and somehow, the British, something happened on
>Sept. 11th, 2001.
>
>To a lot of non-Americans - this didn't start Sept. 11th, this 'war'
>started earlier, much earlier. And the Americans are the aggressors,
>they are the monster, they are a social monster, catering to the
>biological needs of it's cells, and willing to destroy intellectual
>patterns in other societies in order to create a bigger market for their
>particular breed of social monster. To take things teleologically and
>say that by virtue of appearing to be 'winning', the USA must be
>'superior' is just short-sighted. Time hiccups, and evolution is often
>jaggy.
Gee... That's the typical anti-American position, and that's getting very
stale, IMHO. Globalization and the misery it creates isn't an American
processus trying to take over the world. It is a trans-national movement of
rich people trying to get even richer. A lot of those are Americans, but
others are European, Asians and, yes, even Arabs. It is SOM value-less void
filled with hard cash, and little else. Everyone blames it on the Americans,
because they are supposed to be the boss. But the truth is that the USA
never wanted the job and that trans-national companies have thrived in that
vacuum, creating much misery. Falling back on nationalist stereotypes, or
even worse, ethnic ones will only aggravate the problem, not solve it.
>That's all I have to say about this, it's an endless topic, and one that
>damns me just by talking about, cause I have to say "American", "Arab",
>"Islamic", and "Xtian"...I don't like those words. Political Note: I'm
>an anarchist, and I'm sick of nationalism, deal with that as you may.
Omar, you may have believed that we were dissing the Arab world, but things
aren't that clear-cut. Every country is a mix of people at very different
stages of development. In some, the biological patterns dominate, in others
it is the social ones, and in a very few, it is the intellectual ones. The
same can be said about societies, and I don't think saying democracies tend
to favorize intellectual patterns is akin to nationalism. I've seen Egypt,
and I do not believe you could, for example, criticise President Mubarak as
freely as I can criticise the French government on their Algerian policy
(I'm French, BTW). That some people do bad things is a fact, but to
generalize and say "Americans are the monster" is just blatantly false and
only add a nationalistic slant to an economic problem. This leads to anger,
and anger leads to hate which leads to the Dark Side of the Force... wait, I
think I'm getting confused, here... :o)
Be good
Denis
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