DAVE & ALL.
Notice for DENIS and MARCO:
Thanks for the latest inputs in the "Has Pirsig created..." thread.
As you will see from this for 3WD I have got stuck in a revolving
door sort of argument - partly with myself - and need some time to
think. See you both.
..................
Hi Dave, you question my SOL interpretation, some of your
objections I easily fence off ....some not so easily and one not at
all. You said:
> Part of Pirsig's project, IMHO, was to unite the wisdoms of the East
> and West into a single comprehensive vision of reality. Remember
> Zen?
No problem with this.
> My objection to Bo's interpretation (SOM is the MoQ
> intellectual level) was and is that it suggests that Q-intellect did
> not evolve anywhere else in the world until it evolved in the
> Western world.
Life may have evolved at Proxima Centaurii for all that we know,
and there certainly were Q-Intellectual starts at other places than
Greece, but not finding a foothold have slipped ...yet, I suspect that
you see Q-intellect as "having ideas" ...and we are back where we
started.
> If you are a strict literalist this is true. There
> was no Q-intellect until Pirsig created it. This is the same
> position that says there was no "metaphysics" until the Greeks
> created it. "Metaphysics as a discipline goes back to Aristotle,
> but the name "metaphysics" goes back to the Aristotelian editors of
> the first century BC." Blackwell's Companion to Metaphysics- p311
> While this "metaphysics" is the "name" and "discipline" it is not
> "metaphysics" the activity.
This is the no-gravity-before-Newton argument of ZAMM, but
remember that Phaedrus of that book demonstrated the impossible
consequences of SOM. In its "world of phenomena and our
interpretation of them" it's natural to state that there were no
gravity before Newton ...in fact - using SOM - one may make a
watertight case of there being no world before each of us were
born.
But in (my) MoQ no "mind" enters at any time - or as a separate
level - yet evolution has reached the value of a "world/mind" (S/O)
divide by way of the intellectual level! So, the "no-gravity-before-
Newton", or "no-Q.intellect-before-Pirsig" have no moq-relevancy.
"Gravity" - as a scientific theory - is an Intellectual pattern, while Q-
intellect is a moq-pattern ......in my opinion.
> " metaphysics in India- Positions and polemics regarding what there
> is have been prevalent in India since at least 1500 BC. A hymn of
> "rg veda" debates whether this cosmos came out of reality,
> nothingness, or neither. Systematic solutions or dissolutions of
> problems regarding the external world, self, creation, causation,
> univerals, space and time, substance, motion, etc., were already
> being argued for and against when Gautama Buddha started on his
> spritual quest."
Sure, but how does this counter my SOLAQI? Speculation about
origin and destiny have been legion since the first humans. I
maintain that "having ideas" is no Q-level, even when existence
was all focussed on the social plane, mankind spun intricate
theories about their world, but no caveman asked if his myth was
objectively true or subjective nonsense.
> Blackwell's Companion to Metaphysics- p319
> So at least 1500 years before the development of Greek S/O logic,
> which underlies the bulk of Western philosophy that Pirsig later
> named SOM, there were, at least according to Blackwell's
> "metaphysical" activities in India. But if you accept BOMoQ these
> were and are not Q-intellectual activities unless and until the are
> vetted though the subject and object logic of Western philosophy and
> the MoQ.
First a rash reply:
Why couldn't there be "metaphysical" speculations about "world
orders" in India thousand of years ago? They were great thinkers
without their ideas being focussed at the Q-intellect ...the SOM ...
as I see it.
My second reply:
Dave, this is a most relevant argument - and the first one that has
made me falter in my SOL-ipsism. The RT part of LILA indicates
that the Easterners had reached an equilibrium between freedom
and ritual (DQ/SQ), but what level was/is involved in the Hindi
ritualism (or in the Native American way of life)? According to the
MoQ all levels have come into being by a static "intrusion" into the
ambient dynamism and no permanent balance can really be be
reached ....except at a alleged 5th (QUALITY) level, but even so,
this has to grow on top of Q-Intellect and (I) can't say that the
Indians - Western and Eastern - have gone through my
SOM/Intellect phase.
Seems like I have painted myself into a corner. Let me think and
return to it, somehow it's tied up with the "trinity" (Quality-DQ/SQ)
problem that Denis, Marco and yours have going)
Bo
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