THE Q:
What do patterns of higher quality have that those of destruction, decay and
disorder don't?
MARCO:
A question, Rog: did you discover first the MOQ or the Game Theory? Which
came first (in the development of your philosophy)?
ROG:
I just read Non Zero a year and a half ago or so. I read Lila about a decade
ago -- as soon as it hit paperback in the US -- and was AMAZED by it. Game
theory on strategies to sustain patterns of cooperation just offered a little
insight that helped me see something my earlier interpretations of the MOQ
missed. When you really look at it though, it really is just another version
of John and Wilbers "span and depth" solution though. (I first read Wilber
based upon a recommendation from Rich Pretty)
M:
Cooperation is indeed a great solution, but sometimes it leads to new
conflicts.
R:
I think solutions inevitably lead to new problems, yes. But it is can still
progress, as solutions to new problems can lead to more and more Quality. A
virtuous cycle. Darwin's natural selection is one such cycle, science is
another, a third is economic competition. (some cycles are Viscious though
rather than virtuous ie Palestine/Israel.
M:
Take for example your beloved Paco: he can cooperate with you as
his ancestors *decided* it was better to be a dog rather than a wolf. The
positive sum cooperation gives food to the dogs and safety to our houses for
change. A good solution, indeed, as today wolves risk the extinction, while
dogs are billions. It is easy now to state that the wolves were wrong in
preserving their status. But it was not so obvious, at the beginning, that
it was better to be a dog, so the *static immune system* of wolves (rightly)
preserved them, with the result that actually wolves and dogs are enemies.
R:
I just finished playin' with Paco!
i like the metaphor of experimentation. Some wolves/men tried working
together and it was of VALUE. Others never had the opportunity or only
manged to engage in conflict. Yes, 10,000 years later we can see which paid
off in numbers, but even today I would say that man and wolf have came to a
cooperative relationship. We protect it and it improves our world. (OK, this
is making the best of a bad hand, but what the Heck!)
M:
As said, I'm happy for your efforts in the direction of
cooperation/preservation/improvement of patterns. But I hope you don't
dismiss at all the point that sometimes it is sadly necessary to destroy.
The Copernican revolution I mentioned in my post is an example about the
necessity to basically destroy a wrong ancient model in order to create a
new better one. The two couldn't coexist.
R:
But pure distruction without reconstruction is even worse than frozen static
ideas. Right? It is the RECONSTRUCTION that is of value. It is the Dynamic
Quality.
I see a hierarchy:
A.Nothingness
B. Destruction/disorder
C. Static patterns (frozen)
D. dynamic/evolving/experimenting/adaptive patterns (ie leading to DQ)
Several people have responded to the Q that destruction is good. I reject
all their examples. In no case has anyone shown that destruction for
destruction's sake is good except in those cases where it is as a means to
progress from C to D. And if it is the progression from C to D that is good,
then destruction's good is that it CAN lead to more quality. So, the
question is, WHEN does destruction lead to reconstruction? (hint: in
science, economics and natural selection).
So, can anyone argue that destruction for destruction's sake is good?
M:
"If you want to drink new tea you have to get rid of the old tea that's in
your cup...."
(Lila, chapter 2)
R:
Never does he say just to annihilate the cup.
M:
This sentence has a great sense in a situation of constant room. Of course,
the better solution is to build another cup, but it's not always possible.
R:
That's true too!
Ciao,
Rog
PS -- Yea, I suspect so. I won't argue physics with Stephen Hawking, but if
the second law is accurate on the scale of the universe, then it certainly
isn't very interesting in how it applies over our time scales. It doesn't
catch the interesting things (those of VALUE?) in our universe!
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