To: John, Bo, Wim, Platt, Denis and 3DW
From: Rog
JOHN:
In response to Platt's counterargument to my earlier points, you say "a
major benefit of the MOQ is that it is a metaphysics that can logically
derive a 'ought' from an 'is'. What exists is quality/value, and therefore
values of all types -- including morals -- are legitimate, rational,
logically consistent fields of inquiry."
Basically I agree with you, and certainly see this as Pirsig's big
contribution to metaphysics. However, as I pointed out before, Pirsig
recognises more than one 'source' of quality/value, and so the apparent
simplicity of his system is lost. In the hot stove example, Pirsig makes
clear that "low quality ... is an experience". In my view this is a summary
of one of his understandings of quality. It is profound, and probably has
never been stated so simply before, but it is hardly novel.
ROG:
Quality is experience, but this experience includes those we later categorize
as intellectual experiences. (and I see no value in entering the novelty
argument). Pirsig makes this real clear (as James did -- though somewhat
differently-- almost a hundred years earlier -- oops! Almost entered it.)
early in Lila. There is no experience/intellectual dilemma in the MOQ. (Bo
and Platt will second me on this one!)
J:
When Pirsig argues, though, that intellectuals must temper their quality to
the well-being of the social realm, he introduces a new standard. This is
not an experiential awareness of quality. This is a reasoned debate about
whether or not the proposed idea will support social values against
biological values or vice versa, and then a 'moral' imperative to act in
support of the social. Different ball game entirely. And when at the end of
Lila he suggests "if you manage to absorb it [Karma] and not pass it on,
that's the highest moral conduct of all", he is pointing to yet a third
yardstick for defining what is good, that seems remarkably close to
traditional Christian theology.
R:
What he is absorbing is the destruction, and the resolution to these concerns
is imo your own answer of harmony across depth and span. See, also my post
to Wim.
J:
I again tend to agree with you, but yet again I wonder do you see the point
I am making about the different realms of quality that Pirsig seems to refer
to, and seemingly gets away with due to having hypnotised us into accepting
that quality cannot be defined? I am arguing that by setting up different
understandings of how quality is perceived, he also allows for conflicts
between these different understandings of quality. And when a situation
arises where I have a real 'eureka' insight, a top quality idea that excites
me, and I just know it is quality - how then do I turn around and check its
support for social values as against biological values. They are two
different ways of being in the world. And if they clash, which is right?
R:
I don't follow you all the way here. First, he (RMP) says sq IS quality
defined.
Second, he does lay out how to sort out clashes. The problem is that RMP's
solution has been uniformly been found wanting (and Platt and Bo and 3DW were
there in Oct of '98 as the defects were all brought to light).
Third, I think overlaying your/Wilber's harmony of span and depth, with
Wim's/Pirsig's balance of stability and versatility is a solution that adds a
very small, yet significant missing piece to the MOQ. It clarifies that the
solution to clashes isn't to pick relative winners and losers, it is to
eliminate the clashes altogether (in defense of Pirsig though, his levels
really DO accomplish this, though incompletely). Easier said than done, but
it is a start of a map toward higher quality. Granted it hasn't been written
yet, but we can see how it is possible to begin our next phase of cartography.
Hope this at least helps a little....
Rog
PS -- I just noticed that this thread is starting to weave into Denis and
Bo's (which has ben excellent btw)
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