Hi Struan, Sam, Rick others
Struan you wrote; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 02:22:29 -0000
At a fundamental level, the question of whether quality resides in the
subject or the object is not one of any great concern to anyone I have ever
met or read, for reasons which are obvious to all, but, it would seem, the
majority on this forum.
Davor:
Maybe that's because most people here agree that quality is prior to
subject/object?
Struan you asked;
A more pertinent question would be to analyse what it is about those who
follow the moq that makes them need to develop their metaphysics almost
entirely in oppositional terms and against an imaginary enemy (SOM)."
Rick:Thu, 27 Dec 2001 00:42:10
I think the "MoQ v. SOM" attitude that you point you here is byproduct
of the "literary" nature of ZMM and LILA. Every good piece of literature
needs an antagonist of somekind, be it man, nature, society,
circumstance.... And more importantly, every good hero needs to confront
the particular antagonist that he's ready for (Jason got a minotaur, Luke
got Darth, Alice got the Queen of Hearts). Pirsig's hero is a philosopher,
or more precisely, a metaphysics, the MoQ. Therefore, from a literary
standpoint, the only appropriate "bad guy" that fits, is another
metaphysics, thus the need for SOM.
Davor;
SOM is a precedent of MOQ not something that is necessarily contradicting,
MOQ is a broader view.
Rick:
Can anyone name a such an intellectually rigorous novel that
also faired so well in the marketplace?
Davor:
Dostojevski?
Sam you wrote; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:08:47 -0000
Now then. I have a question for you, and for anyone else who might be
interested in trying to tie down a specific answer to a concrete question.
Do you believe that Pirsig is in fact an Idealist, in the 'mainstream
Western philosophy' sense, that would include Berkeley, Kant and Hegel in
its different variants?
This is quite interesting Sam, What kind of idealism are you talking about?
it's probably my lack of knowledge about these three philosophers(I have
read Prolegomena, and Hegel's speculative philosophy as a deliverance from
modern subjectivity by Henk Stockmans).
I will try to summarize the views of Hegel, Kant, Berkeley and one of my
early journey heroes..........Fichte, It's not easy summarize the viewpoints
in a post less than 2000 K but I'll have a go;
Hegel his subjectivity
I know that Hegel first rejected rejected Kant his philosophy, ''this point
of view has no truth'' Hegel writes in his Enzyklopädie, and further;
''Diese moderne verzweiflung an der erkennbarkeit der Wahrheit ist aller
spekulativen Philosophie wie aller echten Religiosität fremd''. Truth is
absolute he says. Later on he changes his mind about this and tends to have
a way more subjective approach, I mention this shift for a better
understanding of the way Hegels thoughts evolved(important for those who
want dig further in Hegels works, there is more unity in his early and late
work, though even hegel self didn't want to believe that and with him many
interpretors).
Hegel writes there are three kinds of human subjectivity corrsponding with
the stages of life; childhood, youth, maturity, old age.
The first kind of human subjectivity is that of a child, ''as a child the
individual is in immediate unquestioned unity with it's surrounding world,
which it trusts. It's subjectivity is an sich. Than arriving in the ''youth
stage'' it loses this connection, this unity with the world, it re-flexes in
itself as Hegel states. Maturity is characterised by an individual that is
'für sich, it places it's former world as objectivity outside itself. it
lives for itself, objectivity is referred as 'the other'. Finally, in old
age the individual becomes an and für sich, it becomes a child again, not in
the sense of the earlier described child, but mediated by knowledge.
I'm not going to describe the projection of these stages on the world
history because I think that is to confusing and would cause more mis- then
understanding. Maybe another time.
Kant his subjectivity
I only read Prolegomena so I'm not going to claim a thorough understanding
of Kant(it's like chewing leather), nor am I going to discuss much aspects
of Kant his philosophy, I'll try to give a brief summary of what Kant
thought about metaphysics which was the most important issue in the Critique
of pure reason
>From the Prolegomena; The three ideas of reasoning; the one of the soul, the
world and the idea of God which relate to the domain of theoretical knowing
in a way that they only had a regulative function and had only subjective
meaning, are constitutive and get objective reality 'regarding' practical
'acting' as the ideas of freedom, immortality and God.
Kant claims that though we can't lift ourselves above the sensational
experiences, as moral acting beings we are independent of these experiences,
the phenomena and are part of the world of noumena.
Berkeley his subjectivity
this is a radical one, but very inconsistent. First Berkeley denies the
existence of matter, and says there are only spirits an their ideas but he
doesn't have the guts to deny God. Bertrand Russell refers to a limerick
from Ronald Knox that expresses Berkeleys religious naivity;(sorry for the
poor translation, can someone replace it for the original?)
Once there was a man that said; God
would contemplate it as crazy
when he notices that the street
still exists
while nobody sees her
Answer;
Sir, your surprise is crazy
it's Me who notices her
And therefore exists
the street as ever
seen by,
with kind regards; God
greetings Davor
PS:
I want to elaborate further about idealism and give more clear and detailed
descriptions, unfortunately I haven't got time nor I-net access for a few
days so that's the reason for the sloppy post(I just wanted to let you know
I'm participating).
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