Hey Patrick,
The quantum mind is a very interesting idea. Although from my knowledge of
quantum, large scale structures are less likely to feel quantum effects, so
I'm not sure if I really understand how the quantum effects would emerge on
such a large scale.
I am familiar with quantum computers, and the mind seems to be able to do
what they do, which fits the theory.
I don't contend that emergence of has to be magical, it can be evolutionary
rather than revolutionary. In an over used analogy, like the emergence of
society from biological. It could happen slowly, over time. A gradual
awakening into conciousness from a few cells with nothing better to do than
recieve inputs from the senses and make simple logic choices (like eat vs.
sleep). Who knows, it has evolved over millions of years.
That was very interesting though. I'm interested to see how the science
unfolds in the next 20 years.
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Patrick van den Berg
Sent: January 9, 2002 7:16 PM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD Are My brain cells self aware?
Hello Rob and other brain cells,
> To my main pondering.... If I am aware that my brain is made up of
> brain
> cells and that I think with my brain, doesn't that make my brain cells
> self
> aware as well? Since their combined effort does the thinking and they
> actually hold the information that they exist within them.
I disagree with this view. Higher levels magically 'emerging' out of
lower levels, a la Chaos and Complexity Theory; your consciousness
arising from simpler elements such as brain cells. The 'air' of Lila is
in my opinion in agreement with such a philosophy (that's why I liked
Zen better), and there I disagree with Pirsig. (Still, his MoQ is an
interesting Static Quality to lean upon... I'm really glad I found you
guys, embodying the DQ spinning from it!). I'm currently being trained
as a physiological psychologist, and the view you're talking about is
dominant in the neurosciences.
It is not easy too say in a few words why such a *reductionist* view of
consciousness (i.e. complex elements are composed out of simpler ones)
is flawed, but the main thing is that such a view is fundamentally
Newtonian. And theories of reality has passed by such a view. We need,
to be scientifically precise, (at least!!!) nonlocality to explain the
mind... why? It took me some time to get this argument presented by my
No. 1 book of all times (don't worry, Zen is in the Top Three, with The
Lord of the Rings), but it's in my opinion THE argument for the Quantum
Mind: 1) Our consciousness of a triangle is (indeed) composed of simpler
elements such as angles and lines.
2) different neurons or neuronal groups are responisble for the
representation of those lines and angles.
3) therefore, there are multiple *spatially seperated* neurons
responsible for our conscioussness at one moment
4) because of 3), there is thus *instantaneous* communication between
spatially seperated events in the brain. That's sort of the definition
of (quantum) nonlocality...
Really, the argument is solid, I hoped I formulated it well, although
I'm quite tipsy of quite some glasses of cheap red wine... distuingished
neuro-scientists has read this argument in some form, but they strangely
enough remain in their well-charished, old paradigms (including Chris
Koch and Francis Crick!). Maybe because QM is surrounded by mysteries
and mis-understanding, I don't know.
>
> This is a good question about levels. Can lower oder (machine code)
> entities
> ever transcend the levels themselves?
The protein folding problem (how to get from simple molecules to the
right configuration for a protein) is maybe solved by a kind of
biological quantum computation. Maybe these proteins (at the same level,
or a bit lower as brain cells?) are thus conscious? Maybe they are, I
don't know, but I don't think they're '*self*-consciouss. We need the
classical, chaotic (nonlinear) neural processes linked with nonlocal
processess in the brain for that... :-)
In spite of having the same substance floating inside my brain and body
as Pirsig had when describing Newton's 'inventions', I hope I've been
more clear than my previous posting... ;-)
Greetings, Patrick.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:01:46 BST