Jonathan, Magnus, Platt, all
Jonathan asked for help... hope I'm not adding problems.... :-)
===========
Firstly, an answer to Magnus' post to me:
Magnus:
On the other hand, both the social and intellectual pattern would disappear
of the language disappeared, so in a sense, both are dependent on language.
There is still a clear difference between social and intellectual patterns.
In the case of the Lila Squad, the language is English, the social pattern
is the Lila Squad community and the intellectual patterns are the ideas on
the MoQ site. Both the Lila Squad society and the ideas on the site would
disappear if English suddenly vanished. (Well, not to you since you have an
Italian mirror but that doesn't count. :)
Marco:
Oh, no, I think it counts. I mean, I agree that both are dependent on
language. So, applying the "which comes first" rule, I'd say that first
comes the "language skill" - that is biological; then comes "English (or
Italian) tongue", that is the social "glue" upon a society can be formed;
finally come intellectual patterns using -and empowering for their
advantage- the social patterns (language, rituals, roles, netiquette and so
on...)
Your example of the Italian mirror shows clearly that the diverse the
language the diverse the society: turn the Lila Squad into Italian and it
will become " Il gruppo Lila"; all the members will suddenly change (but
me and Andrea....). Nevertheless, your essay will still exist, as it has
been translated into Italian, without losing its intellectual value (hoping
my translation is flawless...). In few words, Intellect needs one language,
no matter which one. But society, the Giant, Culture can't replace the
language without changing deeply its nature.
========
Now, I want to tell my point about Magnus' MOQ interpretation. I've
translated his essay into Italian last year as I find it of great
value, even if, as I said, he can't convince me. It is probably the best
attempt I've seen to give a clear description of the levels. A noble
attempt, but the result has IMHO few problems: among many things I agree
with, there is something I don't buy.
[One marginal problem is that it is -as even Magnus says- too "classic".
Very rational, maybe too much. He -sort of- asks forgiveness for that and
writes that he would like to see someone writing an essay from the Romantic
viewpoint. I don't know, maybe Platt could describe evolution of the Static
levels from the perspective of aesthetics.....? ]
But in concrete, these are my objections:
Firstly, there is this sort of infinite circle of inorganic level created by
an intellectual level and then evolving to a new universe, and IMO it misses
the MOQ point of the overall direction to DQ.
Then, the social level is IMO put in a exaggeratedly broad sense. I agree
that it is not easy to draw the borderlines between the levels, and that it
is not clear at all why should the social level be restricted only to
humans, but I don't see any advantage in saying that an atom is a
society.... [If someone is interested, I'll end this message with my own
suggestion].
Finally, about a possible Quantum Level "zero", I don't see the necessity to
metaphysically separate quanta from matter, but I have really no arguments
on it. My instinct (!) says Jonathan could be right on that.
Nevertheless, I don't feel the need for any exception at the intellectual
level, as Jonathan suggests. IMO it is just another level. It is indeed able
to encompass the other three, as well as society can encompass the two below
and so on. After many attempts, I have concluded that the Pirsig's original
image of the levels -the one in the SODAV paper- is not that bad.
Ok, up to now I've just said "No". Time to be positive and suggest
something.... even according to the subject of the current thread.
The inorganic level is all what there is. Yes, everything is necessarily
also inorganic.. (while for example the opposite is not necessarily true: a
stone is not biological or social or intellectual). Of course, it's no
sense, as Pirsig says, to search for the meaning of a novel looking at the
bits of the hard disk it's saved on, but it is equally obvious that if I
delete all the bits I delete also the novel. Call this level matter/energy
or space/time universe or as you want. The above levels "see" the inorganic
patterns as
data, that means: all that is available.
The passage from inorganic patterns to biological patterns is very similar
to the hw/sw relation. Like to say, if you want, above from now there is
only software.
The biological level -life- is the ability of influencing reality, creating
information from data. I mean, the Sun -hope we agree it's inorganic-
influences reality, of course, but not according to the information it takes
from the available data. We recognize a biological pattern of value -a
living entity- as set of information stored in inorganic patterns, able of
self sustaining and self reproduction. The only way to transmit a biological
information is inheritance, as there is total identity between the living
entity and its set of information. In few words, in order to duplicate my
biological information, I have to "create" another individual.
So, is a Robot a biological entity? I don't deny we can create living
entities (well, women do it since million years :-) ). But the Robot will be
a living entity only if it will be able to provide resources for itself and
reproduce itself. Not if it can't live when I turn the electricity off. It
can even be electric,why not, but then he should be able to produce by
itself the electricity it needs. I'd add that simply "to be able" of
reproduction is not enough: it should be also "better" for it to reproduce
itself than not. Hope it is not necessary to explain that we can't say what
does it mean that "better". The Biological Robot, eventually, will know it
**by itself**, like every amoeba knows.
The passage from biological patterns to social patterns shows a new ability
in information transmission: communication.
The social level is the living entities' ability of sharing information by
means of a common language. Diversely from the precedent level, in order to
duplicate my social information it is not necessary to "create" another
individual. According to this point, a pack of wolves is social as there is
communication between the members and learning. In few words, culture is the
set of information it is possible to exchange between living entities
without biological transmission. Of course, that gives the status of
"social" to many organized groups of animals. But it is well clear that only
in humans and few apes the majority of the information is cultural and not
biological. A wolf is able to live as member of the community after few
months of learning; a chimpanzee after several years; humans ... well
sometimes a life is not enough.
The passage from social patterns to intellectual patterns shows a new kind
of information: self awareness.
The intellectual level is the ability to create and handle and share
information about the individual and its role within the universe. The very
first form of intellectual pattern is the question: "who am I". It triggers
a lot of questions: the relation between me and my universe (thus
philosophy); how should we mould our environment (thus science and
technology); what can I do for my society and what my society can do for me
(thus politics and economy); is it possible for my intellectual patterns to
survive after my biological death (thus religion, arts, medicine....)
Well, it's all. If there is still someone reading (let me thank you) it
seems to me I'm not contradicting the MOQ nor the common sense. Do I miss
something? Let me know.
Thanks,
Marco
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