Hi Wim (Platt and all others are welcome too!),
WIM:
The question in this thread is:
What are the relevant entities to evaluate the relative
performance of alternative social patterns of value: national
societies or the global society?
ROG:
Just because you retitled the thread! The discussion has not been about
terrorism or which scale of cultural relativism we use. It as been on
defining The Path Toward Social Quality. I have been arguing that social
quality is primarily created and you have been argueing that it is primarily
redistributed. Your summary of my position was fine, though I do agree with
you that relative status difference (both national and global) contributes to
terrorism and other dysfunctional patterns. My recommended solution of course
is not to reduce high quality patterns though, it is to assist the
dysfunctionals to create a better society for themselves, which leads us
right back to my quest for solutions (and your quest to... what? What are
you suggesting?).
WIM:
you miss... my equation of social quality
with social status. Social quality is to me (and to Pirsig if I
quoted him rightly) ESSENTIALLY relative and internal to a
society.
ROG:
The best quote of Pirsig's that correlates with my view is that "Cultures can
be graded and judged morally according to their contribution to the evolution
of life." I would argue that Pirsig rejects cultural relativism as
intellectually vacuous.
I disagree that striving, emulating and justifying are what 'holds global
society together.' I am not denying these activities exist or contribute,
just suggesting that it is PRIMARILY global cooperation (identified as
win/win interactions) that holds together nations (and they obviously aren't
held together all that tight right now). I share your recognition that global
society is far from conflict free. It seems that global society is roughly
at the level of the US prior to the constitution, or of Germany prior to
unification. (my European history is very weak though)
You go on to stress that there are various interpretations on global society,
each with its own values and hierarchies: the communist vision vs Islamist vs
Free Enterprise/Democracy. These alternative social visions struggle amonst
themselves. I have no disagreement with this view, and would offer only that
the moral judgement of the quality of each view is based upon its
"contribution to the evolution of life," (and onward to the support of
intellectual quality). One of the above three social models is vastly
superior.
WIM:
I think you start erring... when you write: 'status is a dynamic driver
toward more social quality'. According to me (and Pirsig) status (or 'fame
and fortune') IS social quality.
ROG:
I don't want to deviate into what Pirsig believes, for IF he did believe
this, I would just add it to my small list of objections with his views; but
in this case, I am confident that you are wrong. He speaks of them as
driving *twin forces* that give society its shape and meaning and
organization. He equates them with the driving role of sex in biology. Sex
IS NOT the sum total of biology, and status IS NOT the sum total of social
quality.
WIM:
The things you mention as 'potential benefits delivered through
social quality' may or may not be indicators of Dynamic Quality
depending on the story that is created to legitimize the creation
or preservation of a particular global society. From an
environmentalist or an islamist point of view some of the things
you mention are rather degenerate...
ROG:
You are being a cultural relativist here. I have repeatedly objected to your
relativist 'legitimize' angle. You dismiss the MOQ's moral and evolutionary
hierarchy and revert back to a purposeless, valueless world view. You
evaluate quality based upon some kind of post-modernist,
stories-to-legitimize-my-ability-to-exploit-others "point of view." You must
exorcise this demon. As Pirsig writes, cultural values aren't just what you
refer to as "stories," nor are they all in your head or your imagination,
they are as real as rocks!
And no, "education ... opportunity ... health care... quality of life...and
enhanced ability to influence/experience reality," are not degenerate
patterns (I of course imply these are done in a win/win way across span and
depth).
I guess we need to get to the part of the discussion where we wrap up soon.
Please give me feedback on the above, and let's get to our recommendations.
You know my suggestion (I gave it in my first posting three months ago).
What is your recommendation to improve social quality?
Rog
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