ANDY said:
Here is where I am confused about this whole MOQ deal. ... Is it really an
agreed upon fact that intellectual values necessitate the existence of
science, mathematics, philosophy, and logic? ... I
agree that math and science did not exist in H&G societies, but does that
mean that individuals in these societies could not philosophize or use a
form of logic that was based in rationality. ... Who is to say that they
never pondered their existence in the universe and their reason for being?
I can’t imagine how they could have avoided the subject.
MARY:
I'm going to try to take a crack at this, since I happen to agree with you
that there's been far too much emphasis on science and technology as the
essence of the Intellectual Level.
Here are some Pirsig quotes that I think directly bear on your question.
The quotes all refer to the 1992 Bantam paperback edition of 'Lila'.
PIRSIG SAID:
"Mental patterns ... originate out of society ... what a mind thinks is
dominated by social patterns. ... Our intellectual description of nature is
always culturally derived." pg.
179. "A human being is a collection of ideas, and these ideas take moral
precedence over a society. Ideas are patterns of value. They are at a
higher level of evolution than social patterns of value." pg. 185.
"...there were moral codes that established the supremacy of the social
order over biological life - conventional morals - proscriptions against
drugs, murder, adultery, theft and the like. Third, there were moral codes
that established the supremacy of the intellectual order over the social
order - democracy, trial by jury, freedom of speech, freedom of the press."
pg. 187.
"The intellect's evolutionary purpose has never been to discover an ultimate
meaning of the universe. That is a relatively recent fad. Its historical
purpose has been to help a society find food, detect danger, and defeat
enemies. ... The cells Dynamically invented animals to preserve and improve
their situation. The animals Dynamically invented societies, and societies
Dynamically invented intellectual knowledge for the same reasons." pg. 344
"... the Metaphysics of Quality answers, 'The fundamental purpose of
knowledge is to Dynamically improve and preserve society.' Knowledge has
grown away from this historic purpose and become an end in itself just as
society has grown away from its original purpose of preserving physical
human beings and become an end in itself". pg. 344
"Strictly speaking, the creation of any metaphysics is an immoral act since
it's a lower form of evolution, intellect, trying to devour a higher mystic
one." pg. 457
MARY:
Given that, I interpret Pirsig to mean that for as long as the biological
human species has been capable of developing societies we have had ideas.
We have used these ideas to protect our societies in some way. The ideas
are not necessarily scientific in nature, as Pirsig points out with the
examples of Democracy, freedom of speech, etc.; but, the ideas are more
Dynamic - and hence of greater Value - than the societies in which they
occur. At some point, the ideas grew larger than their original purpose of
protecting society, and became an end in themselves. The Intellectual Level
was born. This new level, more Dynamic (and thus of higher Value) than
Society, no longer served Society, but became something with the potential
to enhance OR threaten Society (just as societies can enhance OR threaten
the Biological Level). HOWEVER, since ideas all arise out of the society in
which they originate, the patterns of the Intellectual Level are skewed to
the Subject/Object metaphysics so valued by Western society. The scientific
method is helpless in the face of morals because SOM makes no provision for
morals. AND, because we have no other tools available to us at the
Intellectual Level than the scientific method, we are using it to try to
construct a worldview - a metaphysics - without Values and Morals.
I believe Pirsig was addressing his arguments to the Intellectual Level
originating from within Western society as begun by the Greeks. I do not
believe he meant to imply that hunter/gathers or American Indian cultures
operated from the same set of societal assumptions, and I don't believe for
a moment he was implying that individuals in those cultures were less
'intelligent'. Intelligence, afterall is based in the biological level.
What I do believe, is that Pirsig viewed the current Intellectual Level in
terms of Western cultures only. At various points in both books he
contrasted Western cultures with Indian cultures. If the Indians do not
have an Intellectual Level, it is because their cultures are inclined to
produce something different - which Pirsig did not define. What an
'Intellectual Level' might look like that originates from an American Indian
culture is something we could look at ourselves, because Pirsig didn't do
it. By his own definition, an Intellectual Level is one that has greater
Dynamic Quality than Society. Perhaps there IS no 'intellectual level' in
other culture types. Perhaps we Westerners are so dumb that we require it,
but it was skipped on the way to a Metaphysical Level by hunter/gathers and
Indians? hmmm
ANDY said:
I still will hold to the view that we can’t make the judgment that these
societies were of inferior quality based on the quality of life experience
for a representative individual. ... To say we have advanced in quality
over H&G is not supported by the evidence and is ethnocentric.
MARY:
I agree. I don't believe Pirsig implied that other societies were
Qualitatively inferior. WE see them as technologically inferior, but that's
not the point is it?
Wishing you happiness,
Mary
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