Marco and all Pirsigians:
Pirsig says...
There's the morality called the "laws of nature," by which inorganic
patterns triumph over chaos;
Which Marco restates as...
1st Principle: Something is better than Nothing
Pirsig says...
There is a morality called the "laws of the jungle" where biology triumphs
over the inorganic forces of starvation and death;
Which Marco restates as...
2nd Principle: Alive is better than Dead
Pirsig gets deep into MOQ territory with...
There's a morality where social patterns triumph over biology, "the
law";
Marco starts to get in trouble with...
3rd Principle: Together is better than Alone
Pirsig baffles SOMers with...
There is intellectual morality, which is still struggling in its attempts
to control society. Human rights is usually the moral code of
intellect-vs.-society, the moral right of intellect to be free of social
control.
Marco compounds the trouble with...
4th Principle: Individuality is better than conformity
Pirsig's 5th principle says...
Finally there's a Dynamic morality which isn't a code.
Which Marco rephrases as...
Basic principle: Better is Better.
DMB had already complained that...
setting the individual up against the collective can lead to that
terrible secret loneliness, to solipsim, to a situation where each of us is
like a single ship out on the ocean trying desperately to communicated by
radio. Painting the 4th moral principle as a contest between the one and the
many only leads to confusion.
To which Marco responded with...
I've accepted the criticism from DMB, but not dropping Individuality. I've
replaced "Mass" with "Conformity". This way, Individuality and Conformity
are both within the intellectual domain, just like Life and Death were under
the biological domain. And there's not anymore a conflict between the single
and the many. Individuality can help society, even *more* than conformity.
Once individuality grows, here comes creativity and arts, curiosity and
science....
And finally, now that we're up to speed, here's the fresh stuff from DMB...
Marco, I think you start to get into trouble with the third principle for
the same reason that I objected to the fourth; they both pit the individual
against the larger system. And I think its no accident that you go beyond
merely re-phrasing Pirsig on those two as well. Pirsig says the third is
about the law over biology, but you have it as together over alone.
Likewise, Pirsig has the fourth code as rights and freedoms over the law,
but you have it as individuality over comformity. I appreciate your previous
qualifiations and your attempted fix by changing "masses" to "conformity",
but it still departs too much from what Pirsig is saying. You've removed my
favorite stuff. Your previous posts about rights were much closer, I think.
Besides, it seems that it would be far easier and cleaner to stick with the
re-statement of the codes just as Pirsig puts it.
1. inorganic patterns are better than chaos
2. life is better than death
3. the law is better than life
4. rights are better than the law
5. dynamic betterness is best
The first two are easy to get, but perhaps we should spend some time
discussing exactly what is meant by rights and the law. The trouble begins
at number three and number four seems to have us in plenty of hot water
because that's where we leave the substance metaphysics far behind, this is
where we get into the stuff that's "just subjective", as the SOMers put it.
I realize that this post doesn't add much to the debate. Just trying to
clarify things.
"Once this political battle is resolved, the MOQ can then go back and re-ask
the question, Just exactly how independent is science, in fact, from
society? The answer it gives is, 'not at all'. A science in which social
patterns are of no account is as unreal and absurd as a society in which
biological patterns are of no account. It's an impossiibility." P299
"Our scientific description of nature is always culturally derived." ... "If
Descartes had said, 'The 17th century French culture exists, therefore I
think, therefore I am,' he would have been correct." P299
"The MOQ resloves the relationship between intellect and society, subject
and object, mind and matter, by embedding all of them in a larger system of
understanding" ... "They have a matter-of-fact evolutionary relationship."
P299
"According to the MOQ these human rights have not just a sentimental basis,
but a rational, metaphysical basis." P307
"Unless you separate these two levels of moral codes (bio vs. soc & soc vs.
int) you get a paralyzing confusion as to whether society is moral of
immoral. That paralyzing confusion is what dominates all thoughts about
morality and society today." P307
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