DMB, Rod, Bo and group
Bravo David!
I've been overwhelmed by the batch of messages last weekend... I could not
read all them... sorry.
I've been impressed too by your post. I think I agree with many things.
Especially I like that you have reverted the clock and fixed the roots of
intellect back to the very ancient times of the early religions. Well done!
I've tried also many times in the past, but IMO you have been much more
effective. And I also like you have recognized the dynamic role of the
individual (the contrarians) for the intellectual development.
[Why not consider that individuality at the intellectual level could be what
celebrity is at the social level? Anyway.... ]
My comment starts from Rod's post:
ROD
Let's remember that ALL humankind followed a path, literally, that started
in the plains of africa, then migrating towards the east across what is now
the arabian gulf, into india ( the birthplace of all religion ), by the time
men reached india, we had apparently developed enough socially to evoke
religious thoughts, early mysticism. Onward again and into China, again some
must have stayed as in India and some must have on around behind the
Himalayas and into eurasia, ( modern day soviet union... sorry), then on
into europe and Greece.
OK everything we now have as a culture originated with this journey over
thousands of years, some stayed along the way and developed into discreet
groups or societies, a split about 10000 yrs ago in china, when some went
north and ended up, in North America, others went west and are our common
ancestors... in fact it has been proven through genetics that everyone in
europe came from a group from the east consisting of ten to twenty
individuals.
MARCO:
Rod, what is your source for that? I have similar but not identical data. My
source is a great book about the story of the colonization of our planet by
humankind: "Genes, Peoples, Languages" by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, an
Italian geneticist at Stanford. The book is available both in Italian and
English. He has related studies of genetics, history of languages and
archeology and has sketched the most probable path humankind has walked.
There are few differences between his conclusions and your post.
(I have not the book with me right now, so I hope I can remember everything
correctly)
Yes, everything started from Africa, about 100,000 years ago. At an average
speed of about two kilometers per century (!) humans arrived firstly in
India; then their path was split into two main directions: one through
New Guinea up to Australia; another one eastward up to China.
Then, another split: few small groups (yes, few dozens probably, but in two
or three waves) crossed the Bering Sea and colonized America; other groups,
westward, walked through Russia up to Europe. The first colonizers of Europe
(probably the ancestors of the Celts?) were less distant than we could
imagine from the American natives!
Meanwhile, other waves started from Africa. One, probably through the
Caucasian area, crossed the path of those "Northern Asians" and originated
the so-called "Indo-Europeans". Another one stopped before, and originated
the Semitic populations.
Indo-Europeans then split into two directions: one south-east to India, a
group that replaced almost completely the original populations (there are
still in Southern India few villages of so called "pre-Dravidic" natives,
very similar to Australians). Another one, westward, invaded Europe
replacing almost completely in different waves the few early Europeans.
Apparently the Basques (with doubts about Welsh and Irish?) are the only
ancient European population of non Indo-European origin. Actually they have
a
completely different language, and many hidden peculiar genetic
characteristic, like the RH- blood factor, that originated indeed there
before the Indo-European invasions.
This is the story, in few words. More or less 90,000 years.
Few considerations. The Indo-European religions were invented much later
than
the shamanic religions (that were probably already existing since the
African origins). And were not invented in India: the Indian version is one
of the many. Actually there are similarities between all the Indo-European
ancient religions (pre Christian and pre Buddha) and cultures. Similarities
that we don't find in original Far East and Native American cultures.
Especially: many competing Gods; an ungraspable (even by Gods) Fate. And the
primacy of the sense of sight, with the importance of visions, drama, the
"dharmakaya light" and so on...
On the other hand, the Semitic populations developed a completely different
kind of religion. One only God. Accessible, to a certain extent, as he
reveals himself to us. And the primacy of the sense of hearing, with the
spoken Verb, that is the voice of God, the Truth.
Here is a point. One God is like to say one truth (I think we have already
covered this in the past, Bo?) While many competing Gods are many competing
truths. At the times of Homer, Greek culture was still *very* Indo-European.
The battles between the Gods of the Homeric tale is an Indo-European saga.
Then what happened? IMO the Greeks have been influenced by the Semitic
populations (let's not forget that Greek alphabet is not Indo-European). In
that culture, the idea of a single truth was something new and to a certain
extent dynamic. At that point, the step to objectivity was not difficult.
SOM, in my opinion, could be originated as a fusion between Indo-European
and
Semitic traditions. An absolute truth, but not revealed as "Verb" of God,
rather an "Idea" (imagine) disclosed by reason. Actually, Plato prepared the
ground for the "Semitic invasion" of Europe! Early Christian thinkers were
all Neo-Platonic, and then neo-Aristotelian. A similar importance Plato's
and Aristotle's thought gained among the Arabs, while the earlier Greek
thinkers up to the Sophists have never been very popular.
Note that Islam still considers a blasphemy any image of God, while
Christianity had to adapt himself to many Indoerupean traditions. And we
have the images of God. In a classic Greek fashion. The Semitic invasion of
Europe has never been complete and actually is over. It has lasted up to the
last century, when finally Nietzsche declared that God was dead. Just
restarting, where else?, from the traditions of the pre-Plato Greece.
Tragedy, the Orphic myths and so on....
And what about the MOQ? I don't think the MOQ is completely derived from an
Indo-European, Orphic tradition, and that is completely against the SOM.
Pirsig never dismisses the great advancements the SOMish thought has
produced. The MOQ, as well as modern science and technology could not exist
without the SOM. He is just trying to restore some good points from the
Indo-European tradition: the multiplicity of truth, the ungraspable
"Conceptually Unknown".... few points that can correct the SO thinking.
===========
Said that, I also want to comment Bo's post:
BO
Look: LILA points to an alliance between Intellect and Biology (the
egg-heads and the criminals) to fight Society. I think it's a rule that
the upper level seeks support from the one below its parent level
and that this is what you demonstrate by returning so strongly to
the social level. The ally of something that wants to undermine
Intellect is Society.
M:
1st) I don't think the MOQ (or QM if you want) should undermine intellect.
That's because the MOQ is part of intellect, as David clearly explains, and
because the intellectual level is not still well latched. Pirsig says that
after the 60's we are back to the last static latch, the social values of
the Victorians.
2 nd) In any case, as well as it has been a mistake the alliance with
biology to undermine society, I'd consider completely wrong to ally with
society to undermine intellect
BO:
You are right in so doing, but we need to look at the QM as
something beyond intellect to free Pirsig from the neo-fascist
accusations that followed LILA. Seen as a pattern that struggles
with SOM for control of the intellectual level makes him one - even
seen from his own system - that the LILA reviewers didn't have an
inkling is another matter. More about this masterpiece later.
M:
Sorry, but it is exactly an alliance with society against intellect that
could trigger an accusation of Fascism. This is evident. At the contrary,
it seems to me that fighting the SO thinking can trigger (wrong) accusations
of new-age postmodernism.
======================
thanks for reading
Ciao,
Marco
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