>===== Original Message From moq_discuss@moq.org =====
GLENN:You seem to fail to appreciate that Pirsig agrees with Whorf. Pirsig
cites
>Whorf's research in Lila as evidence supporting Pirsig's position. Rick was
>trying to convince you that the Sapir/Whorf conclusion was based on flimsy
>science. Diana's post about it is - MD Problems with Pirsig, Mar 03, 2000:
>http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/0003/0014.html
ERIN: I can cite TONS of evidence that supports language influences
perception; that Whorf took the idea too far when he said it determines
perceptions but personally I think he was a pioneer in the field and the fact
that he overestimated the influence is not suprising, it was a new field and
thus it is reasonable there were mistakes.
DIANA:
As for the Sapir-Whorf theory, it may be widely held, but that doesn't
stop Steven Pinker from trashing it mercilessly in "The Language Instinct",
saying there is no scientific evidence for it at all. He even points out
the absurdities of those who attempted to prove it, eg: Whorf didn't
actually study any Apaches and it's not clear that he ever even met one!
ERIN: Pirsig may or may not have believed the evidence presented by Whorf but
how is that different from you believing the evidence presented here?
Personally I think Pirsig would question anyone..but that is probably just my
confirmation bias huh?
Again tons o' evidence that language influences perception--didn't determine
whether they could see the different colors but the number of color words
influenced their ability to in memory tasks where they had to make subtle
distinctions. I had also told Rick and i will find it if you want there is a
wholeline of research that looks how expertise affects perception and a lot of
that expertise knowledge that affects perceptions is language,or terminology.
DIANA:
To take the example of colors. Pirsig says that the Chocktaw Indians don't
distinguish between the colors yellow and green. Does he mean that they
don't think it's important to distinguish so they haven't bothered with the
words , or that they actually CAN'T see it? There is a qualitative
difference between the two.
ERIN: Pirisg says distinguish the two colors he doesn't say they can't see the
difference right?
>ERIN:
>>... and on page 387 he gives a biological explanation of that
>>dharmakaya light.
>
GLENN: No. He thinks its an objective phenomena - an inorganic pattern.
>A biological explanation suggests that he thinks the light was generated by
>his brain - that it's subjective. He doesn't think this.
ERIN: How is this not a biological explanation..." But without any
experimental testing, he thought that the light was nothing more than an
involuntary widening of the iris of the eyes of the observer that lets extra
light and makes things look brighter, a kind of hallucinatory light produced
by optic stimulation, somewhat like the light that comes when one stares at
something too long. " 387
GLENN: Agreed. I think these are valid psychological effects. What I think is
>radical is that Pirsig takes the idea to extremes, as is evidenced by the
>Dharmakaya light passage and the sweeping sense of the 'cultural selection
>of inorganic value to observe and ignore' quote.
ERIN: Still don't see what you are saying Glenn, I see it as a lot of things
compete for our attention and our beliefs (influenced by culture) will
influence what info we select to pay attention to and what info is ignored.
GLENN: I'm not too bothered by this, because the reverse is just as true, and
>my presence adds some balance.
ERIN: Good point, your presence is appreciated.
GlENN: No. That's what *I'm* doing :)
ERIN: an accusation? well every human is at least slightly guilty of the
confirmation bias. Well perhaps any confirmation bias of the belief "the moq
is true" will be balanced by your confirmation bias of the belief " the moq is
false"
P.S. wanted to respond to the Moq inviting us to be cultish mind but a wee bit
tired so will come back to that
Later,
Erin
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