Hello Wim and all:
Wim wrote...
I don't think the mythos contains any social values. It contains only
primitive intellectual values.
This idea may not be entirely consistent with what Pirsig writes,
DMB...
We certainly agree that your idea isn't consistent with Pirsig.
Wim continues...
but is (I think) a logical conclusion from some things he writes:
'In cultures without books ritual seems to be a public library for teaching
the young and preserving common values and information. These rituals may be
the connecting link between the social and intellectual levels of evolution.
One can imagine primitive song-rituals and dance-rituals associated with
certain cosmology stories, myths, which generated the first primitive
religions. From these the first intellectual truths could have been derived.
('Lila' ch.30, in your copy p. 387)
historically: social values > rituals > myths/cosmology stories/primitive
religions > intellectual truths
If rituals are the link between the social and intellectual levels, they can
be understood BOTH as social patterns of values (habits/practices that are
passed on because they have proven their value) AND as intellectual patterns
of values (a public library containing common values and information). The
mythos originates from the intellectual aspect of rituals, from the stories
& myths that are associated (by primitive intellect) with them.
DMB...
Pirsig says the rituals are "associated" with myths and cosmlogy stories
here, but I'd go an inch or two further and say they are intimately
associated. As Campbell puts it, "a ritual is the enactment of a myth".
Think of the way christianity says that we must accept christ in our hearts
and compare the ritual of eating his body and drinking his blood. The beleif
and the act are two versions of the same thing. The myth gives meaning to
this ritual cannabalism. Interesting, no? Anyway.... Yes, the first
intellectual truths could have been DERIVED (there's that word again) from
rituals and myths, but these two levels are discrete. Mixing or fusing the
two does an injustice to the MOQ.
Wim continued...
Going back to times before the birth of the intellectual level means we have
to go on material remains (skeletons, artefacts, traces of burning) and
MODEL (not guess about) a way of human life that could have created these
WITHOUT ideas (intellectual patterns of values). If we want to clarify the
nature of the social level, that is what we have to do, I think. If we do
so, we will have to conclude that the social values we find cannot possibly
'battle intellectual values'. They are too different. The (on-going) battle
you (and Pirsig, inconsistently) describe as a 'battle between social and
intellectual values' is in my opinion a battle between higher and lower
quality intellectual values among themselves.
DMB answers...
Myths tell us so much more than any bones or ashes ever will and these myths
are still available for analysis. These myths are perfectly legitimate
artefacts and scholars have already done much work for us. Pirsig says its a
great way to get at the innermost values of the social and specifically
names THE MASKS OF GOD. I don't understand your resistence to this notion.
Finally, with respect to your take on the battle between the 3rd and 4th
level, I've already sent thousands of words and am at a loss to imagine what
more I can say.
Thanks for your time,
DMB
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