Hi David,
DB
Some members don't think "building a master plan" is a quality of the
intellectual level and some smell a slightly paranoid anti-intellectual
attitude in the accusation. I'd also disagree with the second statement if
it means the bookstore is more important than the books. But if Roger means
that we need an intellectual enviroment where ideas can thrive or fizzle
based on their merit alone, then I agree entirely.
Rog
I meant that, as an example, the scientific methodology itself is more
important than a particular theory. Nothing anti-intellectual (or personal)
was intended, as long as the approach is dynamic.
>ROG:
>PS -- I would say that interaction can also lead to cooperation. As we
>progress up the levels, competition gains in its ability to be cooperative.
>For example, companies learn from their competitors, and scientists
>definitely gain more from other scientists and theories than they lose.
DB:
Hmmm. I think competiton is a feature of the lower levels, all the blue
ribbons and tropheys, all the promotions and kudos are social level values.
That stuff is as old as civilization, or maybe even older. Intellectual
level interactions operate with a whole different set of rules. These rules
are not at all concerned with which scientists will "win". The rules are
aimed at at different goals, at producing scientific truth, academic
integrity, and adding to the sum of human understanding. Attaining any of
these goals requires the kind of intellectual honesty that can put
self-interest aside.
Rog:
I agree that competition is a prominent feature of the 2nd and 3rd levels.
By the 4th level, the interesting feature of competition is between ideas (I
would say your scientist's ambition is indeed social). The competition is
between competing theories and concepts. I see it as extremely powerful
here. This is a driving force toward the progress of science and other
intellectual theories. The cool thing here is that the same scientist can
have multiple, competing hypotheses or theories.
DB:
I'd go even further. Competition on the biological level is a ruthless and
bloody affair. And too often the kind of social darwinism that enshrines
competition as a corner stone of capitalism points to biological evolution
as their model and thereby endorse an inappropriate level of ruthlessness.
Ha! The "marketplace" analogy isn't even quite right for the actual
marketplace.
Rog:
Yes, I agree here as well. There needs to be clear separation of biological
competition from social competition. Nature is ruthless, brutal and wasteful.
Evolution procedes only at the expense of all those that died.
Social competition must be carefully restricted to prohibit destructive
behavior. Companies, for example, should compete on ideas or quality, not by
predatory pricing or by burning down their competitor's factory. Successful
marketplaces invariably have effective limitations on disfunctional
competition. Many of the rules actually enforce that competition remains
viable. Rules against trade prohibitions, monopolies and collusion, for
example (as well as your example of disinformation and lies).
DB:
The marketplace wants to turn everything into a commodity. I guess that's
only natural. But when it tries to commodify higher level values, that's a
MOQ crime. There's an agressive quality to capitalism that wants to re-make
everything in the world in its own image. Its a value system that says that
"if it doesn't make a buck, if it doesn't serve my interests, then it isn't
worth doing."
Rog:
Your criticism of capitalism are sound. There are limits to economic
competition, even at the level of society. The marketplace is insufficient.
Of course, other economic systems have their inadequacies as well. The
challenge every society faces is maximizing the benefits and minimizing the
detriments of competition, regulation, government intervention, etc.
Furthermore, we need critics of the current system such as yourself to
continuously challenge assumptions and point out inadequacies. You and I
play a part in the competition of ideas as well.
Rog
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