In a message dated 4/13/02 3:26:21 PM GMT Daylight Time, pholden@sc.rr.com
writes:
<< Subj: Re: MD ignorance and the rule of emotion
Date: 4/13/02 3:26:21 PM GMT Daylight Time
From: pholden@sc.rr.com (Platt Holden)
Sender: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
Reply-to: moq_discuss@moq.org
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Hi Squonk:
P:
> Assuming you live in a free market society, what products do you own that
> you were forced to acquire against your will?
S:
> You are the result of your culture.
> Your culture is one of consumerism.
> Therefore you consume.
> In consuming you do not exert your will; you reinforce the patterns of your
> culture. This makes you vulnerable to media manipulation of your social
> values and may limit your freedom NOT to consume. (Try buying nothing for a
> month?)
A non-answer to the question.
Hi Platt,
A non-answer you say?
Astonishing!
Is there no beginning to your imagination?
P:
> What products have you purchased of low value? What planetary
> resources are being dissipated?
S:
> Shaving foam.
> Ozone layer.
Why did you buy it? Someone twist your arm? Cite evidence for
dissipation of the ozone layer and to what effect.
Astonishing still!
I have to ask myself if you are being serious?
If you have not made yourself aware of the Ozone depletion problem and skin
cancer problems then, for your own health at least, please educate yourself?
It could save your life my friend.
Tip: Make sure you always protect yourself from the Sun and use an
appropriate sun factor, especially at high latitudes close to the poles.
P:
> Just how is the planet being trashed?
S:
> Biodiversity for starters.
Please define "biodiversity." Why important? Are we also part of it?
Read, 'Ishmael' by Quinn.
Good for an interpretation of the fall which you may find illuminating?
The thrust is this: Nature has empirically observable laws. One is the
importance of maintaining biodiversity.
S:
> > An intellectual stance recognises that society can become out of
> >control
> > and is not inherently free in the sense capitalists feel it is or should
> > be. A trading, (no pun intended) of freedom for long term planetary
> health > is a sacrifice i feel the MOQ would support?
P:
> What makes you think the MOQ would support such a sacrifice?
Without a supporting biosphere, (biological patterns of value) social
patterns of value are fundamentally threatened; and further, intellectual
patterns. In other words the foundations of thousands of years of human
evolution is being eroded at its evolutionary base. Therefore negative
effects of social patterns, (excessive waste through free consumerism) must
be challenged?
S:
> Because that is what maintenance is all about; a balance between stasis and
> dynamism.
Good answer. The problem is to determine what is necessary for
"long term planetary health." There's much debate among experts on
this, as I'm sure you are aware..
Then add to it can't you?
With your wealth and expertise in MOQ matters i should welcome your input.
P:
> Why do you think the MOQ would support socialism ruled by intellect? How
> do you define "intellect?"
S:
> It is a tenet of the MOQ that higher value levels regulate those levels
> immediately below them. I define intellect as that which is of higher
> quality than social patterns of value.
Not MOQ. Free markets encourage DQ. Socialism fosters a controlled
economy and is static. Intellect is indeed higher that social patterns, but
SOM intellect is ill equipped to regulate society because within its
framework, nothing is morally wrong.
MOQ socialism is the support of society in order to free up intellectual
values?
One of the problems of capitalist social structures is that biological
patterns are pandered to.
An MOQ socialism would be a more intellectually oriented society and biology
would be less male dominated and more open to co-operation.
That's my dream.
P:
> It's fine to think for yourself. But to convince anyone else that your
> views are worthwhile, you must present evidence. That's the reason for my
> questions. Maybe I can learn something from you. Then again, maybe not. It
> all depends on the quality of the facts you present to back up your
> assertions.
S:
> ...and the depth of your own value traps.
> (See above - reinforcing your societies patterns as consumer for example.)
Please expand on "value traps." What are they and do you have any?
Value traps negatively filter empirical awareness.
One may not be aware of certain values because your culture does not emphasis
them or suppresses them?
I have loads.
A good way of disclosing them is to be open to experience.
P:
> By using the term "pathological" you accuse the Jewish culture of
> having a biological affliction. Evidence please.
S:
> The pathological is that which tends towards lower value.
> Therefore social values may be pathological if they tend towards biological
> patterns. The social reinforcement of a superior race-gene may be such a
> pathology within a global village of divergent social patterns.
A new definition of "pathology." In my dictionary it means "diseased." If
you are going to make up meanings of words, please give notice. That
people marry their own kind and feel closer to their kin than strangers
should come as no great surprise considering the evidence from
nature, both human and evolutionary. I'll bet your "race" does what all
societies do. You probably know the aphorism, "Birds of feather flock
together."
See, 'Dark nature' by Lyall Watson.
I was not aware that i had to respond to you by writing in an academically
closed style?
I like to extend and stretch language in creative ways that move beyond and
free up static definitions.
<Hangs head and mutters, 'For pity's sake.'>
P:
> Huh? I feel that members of this forum are perfectly capable of
> interpreting Hitler's pronouncement on their own without being told
> what to think. Incidentally, have you read "Mein Kampf?"
S:
> Are you recommending this book?
> I gather you have read it?
> Are you a Nazi sympathiser?
Yes, I've read it and I recommend it. You'll find parallels to anti-
capitalism, anti-Semitic views. Those who disregard history are likely
to repeat it out of ignorance. I'm not a Nazi sympathizer nor do I think
you are.
Thank you.
S:
> But of course, you are being sarcastic.
> I hope the next instalment, if indeed there is to be such, is rather less
> silly.
Sorry you think my asking you to back up your assertions with evidence
is "silly." Perhaps you hold the postmodern view that it's a fact there are
no facts? As for being sarcastic, no. To prevent a recurrence of the
Third Reich or other totalitarian regime, it seems to me prudent to
examine the intellectual rationale behind it by reading what their
leaders said and wrote. Another "must read" IMO is the Communist
Manifesto.
Platt
>>
I am not a postmodernist.
Although, i should imagine an ironic reading of that statement may prove
inconclusive? ;)
But seriously, You have asked a number of questions of me, which i have been
pleased to answer to some degree of sincerity, but where is your debate?
You do not grasp the issue of mutilated Jewish male genitalia?
You appear quite happy to let it slide through your fingers?
All the best,
Squonk.
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