SQUONK:
You feel it may be possible to discriminate between bad and good
intervention?
If intervention is out of the question then are you suggesting that economic
systems have a life of their own?
If one believes Humans to be of higher value than economic systems then one
may not wish to become a servile unit of an economy.
ROG:
Yes, it is possible to see broad patterns in good and bad intervention. See
my "is society progressing" thread with wim. Economic systems do 'seem' like
they have a life of their own, but it is just an emergent pattern of complex
decentralized activity of human beans. Funny you make the comment about
'servile units', this is exactly what I do not like about Collectivist
solutions. They replace hundreds of millions of dynamic individual plans and
values with one static, centralized master plan. Socialism is exactly what
you fear.
S:
Intellect emerges from curiosity and i would venture to suggest that
curiosity is not dependent upon economy.
Intellect did quite well for thousands of years before economic systems
developed and may have been more value centred at that?
R:
You have confused Pirsig's intellectual level with biological thinking. The
intellectual level involves such patterns as logic, math, philosophy and --
most importantly -- the scientific method. This explains a lot though in
regards to how your supposed intellectual values actually appear to be
emotional pleas.
S:
I I, I?
I sometimes feel that is the calling card of US society: Me!
You decode texts with reference to your own ego and do not appear to value
your culture or society for there may be little there to admire?
R:
So, when presented with information that contradicts your position, your
answer is to shift to an unrelated and uncalled-for ad hominem attack? Cool
move dude.
S:
There are three types of lies:
1. Lies.
2. Damned lies.
3. Statistics.
R:
So, any time I provide empirical support you will just label me as a liar?
Great move dude.
S:
My dear fellow, the world is full of starving and malnutrition while the
average American stuffs away so much excess food they wobble rather than
walk.
You can sit there on your loathsome spotty behind with a smug grin on your
face, dude, but what about those dying for want of a bowl of rice?
Do you feel no shame?
R:
No, I feel benevolence. That is why it is my personal goal to study progress
and to avoid "ignorance and the rule of emotion."
Again, I provide information showing your opinion was unsupported, and that
your ideas, if enacted, would do more harm than good, and your response is to
change the subject and call me a loathsome, fat, smug wobble-walker? Nice
move.
S:
I am a bit of an idealist, yes.
That is why the world continually disappoints.
R:
Read Lila. Try MOQ-pragmatism and empiricism for a change.
S:
History is full of mistakes, but that does not mean we may not be optimistic
about the future?
Trawling over what happened, when and why is useful to a degree, but are we
not better equipped now than ever before to learn and move on?
I would venture that socialism would perhaps only ever really work if society
stopped privileging the 'self' and began to realise that everything is
intimately, and possibly spiritually connected.
R:
Probably so. That is indeed one of the problems with socialism and other
idealisms, they depend upon some romantic, idealized view of human nature.
Democracy and capitalism's strengths are that they accept human nature as it
really is and they work just fine within our inherent limitations. They are
pragmatic, dynamic and empirically based.
S:
Suppression of individual freedom is not such a dirty concept in my view.
If a collective goal was social welfare and happiness then we could get along
OK?
R:
If by "fine" you mean kinda like the North Koreans and Cubans, well, yea I
guess so. Good idea dude. I must point out though that -- assuming you were
interested in logical consistency -- that you are now suggesting the very
thing you said you opposed. You are now championing individual servitude
for the collective economy?
S:
All this talk of adaptive systems and everything is all very well, but i am
not sure that adaptive systems should be allowed freedom to lock Humans into
servitude?
R:
So it is ok if idealists lock them into servitude, but not that they actually
have freedom? No comment!
S:
Tell all that to the Vietnam veteran sleeping on the street in California, or
the African Americans and Latinos being forced into the shitty jobs because
Mr. White dude's in charge?
Tell that to the women who never get to be president or have 50% of the vote
in the White house.
R:
Sorry, your arguments don't work with me. My family is hispanic, my wife is
liberated, my place of business is run by people of every racial background.
You have lost all ability to make sense, dude.
S:
One cannot measure the quality of life by quantizing time and space.
R:
Uh...OK. Thanks.
S:
People do far more than support themselves; they work in order to consume
ever more resources. They work and live in a false consciousness that ties
them into a dreamlike vulnerable state of suggestion.
Leave the cinema show!
R:
Alrighty. Squonk, you are indeed living up to the title of this thread.
See you next weekend...
Rog
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:02:10 BST