In a message dated 4/15/02 2:51:59 AM GMT Daylight Time, RISKYBIZ9@aol.com
writes:
<< Subj: Re: MD ignorance and the rule of emotion
Date: 4/15/02 2:51:59 AM GMT Daylight Time
From: RISKYBIZ9@aol.com
Sender: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
Reply-to: moq_discuss@moq.org
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
SQUONK:
You feel it may be possible to discriminate between bad and good
intervention?
If intervention is out of the question then are you suggesting that economic
systems have a life of their own?
If one believes Humans to be of higher value than economic systems then one
may not wish to become a servile unit of an economy.
ROG:
Yes, it is possible to see broad patterns in good and bad intervention. See
my "is society progressing" thread with wim. Economic systems do 'seem' like
they have a life of their own, but it is just an emergent pattern of complex
decentralized activity of human beans. Funny you make the comment about
'servile units', this is exactly what I do not like about Collectivist
solutions. They replace hundreds of millions of dynamic individual plans
and
values with one static, centralized master plan. Socialism is exactly what
you fear.
I don't fear socialism, and i do not feel empirical observation of human
social values to be collectivist.
I fear individuals who have been turned into subjects.
Subjects don't think for themselves, they perpetuate the system.
S:
Intellect emerges from curiosity and i would venture to suggest that
curiosity is not dependent upon economy.
Intellect did quite well for thousands of years before economic systems
developed and may have been more value centred at that?
R:
You have confused Pirsig's intellectual level with biological thinking. The
intellectual level involves such patterns as logic, math, philosophy and --
most importantly -- the scientific method. This explains a lot though in
regards to how your supposed intellectual values actually appear to be
emotional pleas.
I challenge your assessment.
Intellectual patterns are primarily derived from quality.
As such, just because we do not have a record of past intellectual activity
does not mean it wasn't there.
Logic, or logos - 'giving an account' is the new mythos.
Mathematical modelling of reality - a more sophisticated mythos and the basis
of science is not an exhaustive list of intellectual values.
You add Philosophy to your list; 'Loving wisdom' was a concern of Humanity
long before the advent of logos.
This, and more, is what i refer to when i talk of Intellect, and i assure you
i am not confusing it with biological thinking.
Once again, you privilege your 'self' and your contemporary.
S:
I I, I?
I sometimes feel that is the calling card of US society: Me!
You decode texts with reference to your own ego and do not appear to value
your culture or society for there may be little there to admire?
R:
So, when presented with information that contradicts your position, your
answer is to shift to an unrelated and uncalled-for ad hominem attack? Cool
move dude.
You have misunderstood my position and in attempting to contradict your own
misunderstanding have only served to confuse yourself.
I find your culture to be of low value.
It's nothing personal i assure you.
S:
There are three types of lies:
1. Lies.
2. Damned lies.
3. Statistics.
R:
So, any time I provide empirical support you will just label me as a liar?
Great move dude.
Statistics are not empirical, they are interpretative; the interpreter may
impose there own values upon the data.
This does not make you a liar, but it does indicate that you may have fallen
into a value trap.
S:
My dear fellow, the world is full of starving and malnutrition while the
average American stuffs away so much excess food they wobble rather than
walk.
You can sit there on your loathsome spotty behind with a smug grin on your
face, dude, but what about those dying for want of a bowl of rice?
Do you feel no shame?
R:
No, I feel benevolence. That is why it is my personal goal to study progress
and to avoid "ignorance and the rule of emotion."
Don't feel it, show it.
Again, I provide information showing your opinion was unsupported, and that
your ideas, if enacted, would do more harm than good, and your response is
to
change the subject and call me a loathsome, fat, smug wobble-walker? Nice
move.
I was trying to inject a tone of humour there when i called your bottom
loathsome and spotty.
Its a quote from a Monty Python sketch.
I apologise for any insult.
But obesity is rife in the US to the point where you can get a tax break if
you promise to go on a diet?
S:
I am a bit of an idealist, yes.
That is why the world continually disappoints.
R:
Read Lila. Try MOQ-pragmatism and empiricism for a change.
I have read Lila thank you.
I still feel socialism has a place in the world.
S:
History is full of mistakes, but that does not mean we may not be optimistic
about the future?
Trawling over what happened, when and why is useful to a degree, but are we
not better equipped now than ever before to learn and move on?
I would venture that socialism would perhaps only ever really work if
society
stopped privileging the 'self' and began to realise that everything is
intimately, and possibly spiritually connected.
R:
Probably so. That is indeed one of the problems with socialism and other
idealisms, they depend upon some romantic, idealized view of human nature.
Democracy and capitalism's strengths are that they accept human nature as it
really is and they work just fine within our inherent limitations. They are
pragmatic, dynamic and empirically based.
Democracy is a sham and capitalism is out of control.
Human nature is that of the most efficient and active killer on the planet; a
recognition of this would appear to suggest that Human nature needs to be
reigned in a tad?
S:
Suppression of individual freedom is not such a dirty concept in my view.
If a collective goal was social welfare and happiness then we could get
along
OK?
R:
If by "fine" you mean kinda like the North Koreans and Cubans, well, yea I
guess so. Good idea dude. I must point out though that -- assuming you were
interested in logical consistency -- that you are now suggesting the very
thing you said you opposed. You are now championing individual servitude
for the collective economy?
By fine i mean quality.
Logic is by its nature consistent so 'logical consistency' is a tautology
dude.
Unless of course there is such a thing as logical inconsistency?
I champion, to use your phrase, social welfare and a relief from the basic
wants of necessity; i should not wish for the basics of Human needs to have
to be worked or begged for.
Now what on Earth is the big deal with that?
S:
All this talk of adaptive systems and everything is all very well, but i am
not sure that adaptive systems should be allowed freedom to lock Humans into
servitude?
R:
So it is ok if idealists lock them into servitude, but not that they
actually
have freedom? No comment!
Idealists HAVE locked them into servitude.
Capitalism is an ideology just as much as Socialism.
I feel socialism has higher quality than rampant capitalism, for capitalism,
by its very nature, adheres to universal Darwinism where society becomes
stratified into those who may privilege their view of reality by imposing it
upon those who can hardly avoid being coerced by it.
And you call this freedom.
S:
Tell all that to the Vietnam veteran sleeping on the street in California,
or
the African Americans and Latinos being forced into the shitty jobs because
Mr. White dude's in charge?
Tell that to the women who never get to be president or have 50% of the vote
in the White house.
R:
Sorry, your arguments don't work with me. My family is hispanic, my wife is
liberated, my place of business is run by people of every racial background.
You have lost all ability to make sense, dude.
Of course they don't - you have 'bought' into the dream and aspire to social
acceptance and status which your acquisitions confer upon you.
As a 'winner' in the overall game it is natural for you to approve of the
rules and promote the system.
Do you make use of advertising in your business?
Do your adverts ever tell the truth i wonder?
S:
One cannot measure the quality of life by quantizing time and space.
R:
Uh...OK. Thanks.
You are most welcome! ;)
S:
People do far more than support themselves; they work in order to consume
ever more resources. They work and live in a false consciousness that ties
them into a dreamlike vulnerable state of suggestion.
Leave the cinema show!
R:
Alrighty. Squonk, you are indeed living up to the title of this thread.
See you next weekend...
Rog
>>
Plato privileged rationality in his similes but i am not convinced emotion is
the villain this thread title makes it out to be?
As for ignorance?
I don't know about that!
All the best,
Squonk.
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