Dear Bo, 3WDave and Marco,
The fact that I am interested in the MoQ doesn't make me less interested in
applying MoQ to politics. That's were it can prove to be of practical
value...
We agree that new levels starts in the service of the next lower level. Even
the biological level Bo! You should keep in mind that a new level doesn't
necessary serve ALL lower level patterns of value. Because of being served
by a higher level pattern of values some lower level patterns of values get
an advantage in their competition with other patterns of values of the same
level.
Carbon outcompeted other chemical elements by developing life and changed
the face of the earth!
Humanity outcompeted anthropoid apes by developing culture. The chances of
anthropoid apes of developing culture on their own have been sharply
diminished by being outcompeted by us. And if they would develop culture
with human help, it would essentially be human culture and not ape culture.
(According to Pirsig in a note on p. 32 of 'Lila's Child' culture = social
patterns of values plus connected intellectual patterns of values. I would
not call it just 'knowledge we can exchange and store without genetic
replication', Marco, but 'know-how that perpetuates itself, forms a pattern,
by being exchanged and stored without genetic replication'. 'Ape tool making
or use' certainly exists, 3WDave, but are you sure anthropoid apes
consistently pass on and therebye perpetuate this 'know-how' and create a
stable pattern of values that one can call 'culture'? I doubt it, but I am
not fully informed. If animals have a 'dim culture', Marco, could that not
be seen as their way of 'jumping to the moon' of really latched social
quality, which stays out of reach for them?)
I don't think, 3WDave, 'that man and only man can be or will be ever capable
of accessing the higher social or intellectural levels'. I do think that
another species can only successfully develop culture in isolation from
humanity. Otherwise it will be thwarted by humanity once it becomes a threat
to homo sapiens in biological competition. So we only really have to fear
the aliens...
We could simplify the MoQ by saying that the migration of static patterns of
values toward DQ is simply a growth in complexity (as you propose 17/4 7:59
+0200, Bo). To me it seems an unnecessary (over-)simplification fudging the
idea of DQ 'latching' at different levels in fundamentally different ways.
With friendly greetings,
Wim
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