Greetings, Roger,
Roger, I think it is important to confirm facts before posting them here,
especially on a subject as tendentious as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
And it is the obligation of the person asserting a fact, as the source of
it, to back it up, not the person questioning it. The reason for this
obligation is simple: you presumably have at least one example of such a
textbook, and all you have to do is point to it, provide a three line
citation. If you put the burden on your readers of disproving your
statement, you are of course suggesting that the reader search all
Palestinian textbooks, and only after this immense labor, assert that
nothing that supports your assertion could be found. No, the burden of
proof must rest with the person making the assertion. Can you imagine it
being any other way?
"Roger, you are a pederast."
"No, I'm not!"
"Prove it!"
When you say, a 'muslim textbook', you must say what you are referring to,
if not the Qur'an. Look at it this way: if we saw a high school textbook
about American history, would it make sense to characterize it as a
'christian textbook'? Please be aware that about 40% of the Palestinian
refugees are Christian. Or would you say that Palestinian kids study from
textbooks that are '40% christian and 60% muslim'? You see, it makes little
sense. Now, factor in the reality that of all the Arab populations, the
Palestinians are probably among the most secular. Why not just say 'a
textbook' -- why slip in the note that it is 'muslim' when that is
inaccurate?
And yes, I would be very interested in the citation to this 'muslim
textbook.' Please, not references to biased or tertiary sources -- a real
citation.
By now, everyone should know that truth is not a high priority among those
who write or comment about the Middle East, Arabs and Muslims. It is a
great shame. I will say, though, that in all the last five decades, the
debate about Israel has never been more vigorous than it is now, and that is
good.
Now to your three observations:
1. The struggle is over land, yes. The Palestinians, simply want their land
back. Israel occupies about 70% of it, since 1948. The negotiations between
the two leave about 40% for the Palestinians. The Palestinians are willing
to fight for their land; the Israelis are willing to fight to keep it. None
of this can be too surprising to anyone who has followed the conflict. The
Palestinians use terrorist methods because that is what they have. The
Israelis use tanks and helicopters and bulldozers, because that is what they
have. The horror is that the normal rules of war are being observed by
neither side. So far, measured in terms of the dead and wounded, the
Israelis are 'ahead', if that means much.
2. The future will not be brighter until both Palestinians and Israelis
decide that a negotiated compromise peace settlement is best, and they
pretty much have to decide this at the same time. So far, the closest they
have come is to a settlement that in the end proved unacceptable to both. (I
can give you more detail on this, if you like.) That is, both felt that
they were having to give up 'too much.' If you agree that each should have
a viable state, then both were right to finally turn down the plan that they
had been working on. But this means the death and destruction will
continue. It is nonsense to assert that the Palestinians must give up their
animosity before peace can reign, without saying that the dynamic of hatred
goes both ways. The Palestinians don't fight out of hatred -- they fight
for their land. The Israelis don't fight out of hatred -- they fight to
retain the land they consider theirs. Hatred has grown on both sides, yes,
but a settlement can be crafted that will meet the need for viability on
both sides, and if this is done, I think we will find that the hatred will
not get in the way of its implementation, and then will recede. Someday, I
believe we will see a peace in the region and both sides living and working
side by side. I know I must to many seem overly optimistic. I hope I am not
so.
3. More will die, yes. But millions? What is your thinking on a scenario
that leads to millions dying?
Best regards,
Lawry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of RISKYBIZ9@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 6:23 PM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD Middle East Bias -- A Test
Hi Nargess and Lawry,
NARGESS:
Please tell me where of the muslims' texbook it was said that "an other
religious groups are evil and they must be killed"? It is very important
because I have read Holy Qoran and I am certain that it was not
saidthere.Please determine the place of it and if you have not read that
,please search and be certain about the truth.
LAWRY:
Rest assured: in none of its parts does the Quran state or imply that
'other religious groups are evil and must be killed'. This is just another
of Roger's flights of fancy when it comes to Islam, the Middle East, and
Palestinians and Israelis. My guess is that he was amusing himself through
provocation, because a couple of days later, he actually posted something on
a Palestinian/Israeli solution that was fairly thoughtful, incongruent with
his 'test questions', and offered a step in the right direction.
Isn't there something in the Quran about being patient and teaching the
ignorant?
ROG
This quote was lifted from a post where I listed out what I have read in
the media and where I specifically asked for constructive feedback that
would allow me to correct for any misinformation. To accuse me of "flights
of fancy," ignorance, and disregard for the truth is odd considering the
context. Furthermore, what I wrote a few days later was fully congruent
with the statements in the test.
As for the "fact" in question, I never said anything about the Quran. The
Palestinian textbooks in question are school books. I have gotten this from
a number of sources, which I can forward. This of course doesn't make it
true, though. Do you happen to have any evidence that it is not true? If
so, please forward that my way. Also, please feel free to correct my
knowledge on any of the other points -- I attached them all below. In the
absence of counter-arguments, I do indeed arrive at the conclusion that:
1) The Palestinians and Israelis are both victims or pawns in a struggle
to destroy Israel
2) The future cannot brighten for either side until the Palestinians
animosity and hatred and shame is at least offset by some glimmer of hope
3) Millions will most likely die on both sides if solutions aren't taken
immediately
Rog
To: Everyone
From: Rog
Rod, Gav, Rasheed and others are dismissing views that contradict their
own
as products of brainwashing, biased media, Orwellian distortion, etc. At
first I thought they were just adopting one of David's little
social-level,
rhetorical tricks of winning the argument by undermining their
opponents'
credibility. But on further thought, how can I be sure that they aren't
right? I am no Middle East expert. Perhaps I am making a decision based
upon
incorrect and biased facts. So, to test this, I thought I should lay out
the
supposed facts that I am acting upon, giving them a chance to let me
know
where they disagree.
To accomplish this, I wrote up a little test that shows what I believe
to be
the case. I ask questions like in high school and then offer a believed
correct and an incorrect answer. In every case, the ! answer in **'s is
the
one I BELIEVE is true. If I am wrong, please help me see where.
1. Which people cheered on the streets on 9/11?
a) Israelies
b) *Palestinians*
2. Who, in 2000, refused an offer to give the Palestinians 97% of the
west
bank -- in a contiguous area -- shared control of Jerusalem, a capitol
in
Jerusalem, and the right for Palestinians refugees everywhere to return
to
the new homeland?
a) *Arafat*
b) Barak
3. True or false -- Palestine was a British mandate given to Jews and
Palestinian Arabs after WWI from the remnants of the Turkish Empire?
a) *true*
b) false
4. 80% of Palestinian land is in which country?
a) *Jordan*
b) Israel
5. Prior to Israeli occupation, the West Bank and Gaza Strip were
controlled
by..
a) The free state of Palestine
b) *Jordan and Egypt*
6. Israel occupied these two areas because...
a) They attacked peaceful arab neighbors in a land gr! ab
b) *They captured it in a battle while defending themse! lves from
attempted
arab annihilation*
7. Which people have textbooks teaching their children that another
religious
group is evil and must be killed?
a) Israelis
b) *Palestinians*
8. Whose government-run newspaper ran a headline praising Adolph Eichman
with
"The Honor of Killing 6 Million" people?
a) America's
b) *Saudi Arabia's*
9. Which side of the struggle pays $25 to $50K to the families of
suicide
bombers that kill mothers and children?
a) Jews
b) *Arabs*
10. A representative of which country boasted that the final solution to
the
middle east problem was in getting nuclear weapons?
a) Israel
b) *Iran*
11. Whose covenants of 1968 specifically state that "the establishment
of
Israel is fundamentally null and void" and that it "is a national
duty....to
purge the Zionist presence."?
a) *Palestine's*
b) France's
12. Whose geography maps in school don't show Israel?
a) *Pal! estinians'*
b) Turkey's
13. Palestinians are denied employment, healthcare and government
services
in...
a) Israeli occupied territories
b) *Lebanon*
14. Who ethnically cleansed (deported) hundreds of thousands of
Palestinians
about a decade ago?
a) *Kuwait*
b) Israel
15. Who provides sanctuary and support for some of the most wanted
terrorists
and suicide bombers and also celebrates murderous martyrdom?
a) Clinton
b) *Arafat*
Please correct my test above, and help me become aware of my
indoctrination.
I can't progress until I learn.
Rog
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