Hi john and glen and all,
> John wrote:
>> To summarise, immediate experience is ultimately the source of all our
>> knowledge, but we mediate this in words and concepts, and invent higher
>> order explanatory systems, that are distanced from such immediate
>> experience. The MOQ is one such system. That it points to immediate
>> experience of quality is its great virtue; that it remains a metaphysics
> is
>> its great weakness.
>
(glen)
> Why do you think that being a metaphysics is a weakness of the MoQ? The
> MoQ as a metaphysics is a map to quality, static and dynamic. By
> describing the MoQ's being a metaphysics as a weakness are you trying to
> imply that a system could be developed that would be composed of
> experience instead of descriptions of experience?
The daoists describe the universe as an uncarved block. This block has no
qualitites, it is not wooden or three dimensional, it is metaphorical. The
actions of the mind carve the block up into "dog", "happyness" and
"Quality", into the myriad things. The MoQ is one such thing. In MoQ
terms, DQ is the carving and static patterns are the things made. being a
metaphysics is a weakness because it is still a static patern of thought,
using static patterns such as words to define itself. Words are not truth,
they help us understand the world but should not be confused with the world
itself.
John is not trying to suggest "that a system could be developed that would
be composed of
experience instead of descriptions of experience". the word "system"
implies static pattern. No system can be developed, only riding the
cutting edge of reality itself, seeing and understanding before words and
intellectual patterns, before metaphysics. MoQ is a great metaphysics
because it stresses experience (which is the purpose of mysticism), but by
being a metaphysics it makes itself not DQ but a static pattern. Thus
inorder to reach the heights of enlightenemnt, one must vomit out the MoQ
along with all the other distinctions of the mind. But before that point,
MoQ is a high quality static pattern (but not DQ itself).
(glen)
What would you replace language and thought with?
Elliot:
No, the goal of mystical experience is to get beyond language and thought,
to experience the quality event directly without following the objects and
subjects that arise, those are static patterns.
(glen)
Sure language limits our ability convey experience but our biological
patterns limits our ability to
experience it!
Elliot:
First, if language limits why accept it as necissary? second, biological
patterns only limit our perception if one accepts that ALL that we
experience is of the 5 senses. But it is our lot as humans to struggle for
enlightenment. the five senses, like words, are an obstacle to
enlightenemnt, but they can be transcended. We do not know what all the
sources are from which we experience quality. and thridly, language doesnt
just limit our ability to convey experience but it limits our experience.
Rather than letting the world be what it is, we break it up into
categories. Thus an event becomes the idea "Dog" performing the act of
"Chasing" to "the ball". These distinctions are not reality, they are not
fundemental, they are a product of thought and language. One must forget
the names of the piles of sand and realize their unimportance to look up
and see the landscape. This is why any static patter of thought, even the
MoQ, is a burden to enlightenemnt and mysticism, because it becomes a tool
of reason used to carve up the world, which is not by its nature ever
divided.
Elliot
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:02:11 BST