Greetings, Jonathon,
_I_ am the one who asked you many emails ago to look at the history, and
suggested, among others, the very documents that you now propose for
consideration, the Sykes-Picot and British Mandates, and I discussed the
latter in more detail more recently. And yes, they did attach maps.
besiders the documents that I then cited, you implied that there were
additonal ones that were relevant, and I asked you for citations, which you
declined to do.
I agree, this IS becoming boring, because it is deteriorating into ad
hominum imprecations, on both our parts. I have no desire or intention to
belittle you, and apologize for those things that I have said that may have
done so. I sympathize with your plight and that of your fellow Israelis,
and wish you well, personally, and hope deeply that you and the Palestinians
will find your path to peace.
I will now focus on those discussions here that remain substantive and show
progress.
I will only refer here to the matter of "war" and its status. The confusion
in our discussion here is due to our differing uses of the term "war." It
has a legal meaning (I will spell it "War", and a de facto meaning "war".
One can be fighting a war without having declared a state of "War." A state
of "War" is ended by a peace Treaty among the belligerents.
The State of War between several Arab countries and Israel did not start
until 1948, when Israel declared its independence. Prior to this, it was
part of the expectations, for several decades prior to 1948, of at least one
prominent Zionist leader, Ben Gurion (see his autobiography), that the
Zionist settlers would one day fight the Palestinians for Palestine. But
that expectation and the preparations for it, did not create a legal state
of War.
In 1948, several Arab countries declared War on the new state of Israel, and
were defeated militarily. Armistice Agreements were concluded between the
Arab states and Israel, and demarcation lines between the sides laid out.
What was then needed to bring the War to an end were peace Treaties. These
were a long time coming, and several more wars occurred: 1956, 1967 and
1973, along with many cross-border armed incidents. Finally, a Treaty of
peace was signed by Egypt, then Jordan. The state of War was thus ended
between Israel and those states. This is what I was referring to when I
said that war ["War"] existed since 1948. When we talk about 'who started'
the wars/battles of 56, 47, and 73, we are really talking, legally, about
who broke the armistice agreements. In 56, it was clearly the Israelis. In
73, it was clearly the Egyptians. 63 is more ambiguous. Israeli armies
were the first to pour over the armistice lines, but Israel asserts with
considerable accuracy that the Egyptians (and Syrians and Jordanians) had
taken provocative steps, like military maneuvers near the armistice lines,
and the removal of UNEF forces. Given the strategic vulnerability of
Israel, the Israelis say, they had no choice but to strike first. The
Egyptians point to moves that the Israelis made that provoked them, such as
the Israeli-Syrian air clash. International law is more ambiguous on this
matter of whether acts like mobilization constitute a _casus belli_.
Ordering out of UNEF would not constitute a _casus belli_ as the possibility
of their removal was itself provided for in the UNEF plan.
I hope this clarifies the events of 1967.
Good luck to you, Jonathon. Maybe you and I will someday have a chance to
have a coffee together in Jerusalem, and laugh/weep together about all this
argumentation.
Best regards,
Lawry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Jonathan B. Marder
> Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 4:53 AM
SNIP
> This is illustrated by your claim that the 1967 war was a "war that Israel
> initiated".
> Roger and I both pointed out Egypt's acts of war immediately BEFORE
> June 1967 (Roger with specific dates). You accepted these facts, and
> then have the audacity to state:
>
> LAWRENCE
> >Remember, they were in a state of war,
> >mitigated only by an Armistice Agreement; that is what countries do to
> >each other. Quandt's book goes into this in more detail.
>
> But Lawrence, this means that we have to go back to why and when the state
> of war started - in May 1948 when Egypt's forces invaded the territory of
> the
> brand new State of Israel. I hope you don't need to look this up, but I am
> sure that you can verify it in Quandt's book As I see it,
> Lawrence, you have
> contradicted your own assertion. By your own reasoning, the 1967
> hostilities
> were a battle in the war that Egypt initiated 19 years earlier.
>
> I could go on with more illustrations, but it is really getting
> to be a bore
SNIP
>
> Jonathan
>
> PS Lawrence, please do look up the borders of the territory referred to as
> Palestine at the start of the British Mandate and in the Sykes-Picot
> agreement.
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