doesn't this thing hinge on reality = quality = experience. that is there is
no (deeper or objective) reality out there separate of the one that is
experienced. you know the whole if a tree falls in the forest......
>From: "Dan Glover" <daneglover@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: Re: MD Magnus
>Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 03:15:36 -0500
>
>Hello everyone
>
>>From: skutvik@online.no
>>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>>Subject: MD Magnus
>>Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:44:14 +0200
>>
>>
>> > >PIRSIG:
>> > >"Anders is slipping into the materialist assumption that there is a
>> > >huge world out there that has nothing to do with people. The MOQ says
>> > >that is a high quality assumption, within limits. One of its limits
>> > >is that without humans to make it that assumption cannot be made.
>>
>> > >MAGNUS
>> > >Doesn't that sound a lot like Descartes, "I think, therefore I am"?
>> > >It sounds like: We can't say anything about what we can't experience
>> > >first-hand, so why bother? Boring, if you ask me.
>>Bo:
>>Great. In my post of (22/1) I also pointed to this Pirsig statement as
>>dubious, not because it is wrong, but because this is the very SOM
>>thing that the MOQ is supposed to be a relief from. Re-introducing it
>>into the MOQ is un-called for. Or as you said to Marco above ...
>>exclusively for the initiated!
>
>Hi Bo and Magnus
>
>I don't see anywhere in Lila that RMP refutes Descartes other than to add a
>line to
>his famous one before calling it correct. I'm not sure I am seeing the
>problem here
>other than the common misunderstanding RMP tries to correct in his
>annotations pertaining
>to what he means by the social level. It hurts a bit to hear RMP's
>statement
>called
>dubious, boring, and un-called for. I find it fascinating. Hopefully Marco
>will find
>some value in it as well. Have you received your copy yet Marco?
>>
>>(Marco again:)
>> > >The MOQ doesn't hold that everything is in our
>> > >head, just says that the world out there can't be separated from
>> > >people.
>>
>> > Sounds right at first glance but there's something fishy here as well.
>> > I mean, the MoQ is an evolutionary theory right? It doesn't contradict
>> > science in that the universe was created by a Big Bang, then galaxies
>> > formed with stars and planet systems and so on. In other words, the
>> > MoQ concedes that there once existed a reality without people. But
>> > then... I don't know, are you saying that the MoQ didn't exist - that
>> > Quality didn't run things - before Pirsig came along? I think that
>> > puts us right back into hiding in the mind. What's the difference
>> > between that and Descarte?
>>
>>I have noted the discussion going on between some of the new kids on
>>the block (Elliot, Lawry...?) about something that reminds me about our
>>earliest map/terrain debates. I don't recall your opinion on everything
>>Magnus, but my earliest memories are of you reminding people of the
>>enormity of a metaphysics, and you were/are correct: Any great
>>discovery/theory changes reality (the gravity-before-Newton issue) and
>>a metaphysics as the greatest theory there is crystallize EVERYTHING
>>in its pattern. Therefore I have come to the conclusion that even the
>>map/terrain metaphor is "fishy" (read: SOM). The MOQ has released us
>>from the SOM prison so why get inside it again?
>
>Dan:
>
>The MOQ allows us a more expanded point of view, yes, and it doesn't
>contradict
>science, but it doesn't concede there is a reality without people. That is
>what science
>assumes and is RMP's point when he says the MOQ is truly empirical where
>science is not.
>As for re-introducing SOM, doesn't your S-O logic as
>the Quality intellect level do that too, Bo?
>I really don't see how the MOQ can get away from SOM without becoming a
>school of thought
>that requires years to master. I think RMP's point is that it doesn't
>matter
>as long
>as we remember SOM is a sort of short-hand for describing reality.
>
>Dan
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
>
>
>MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
>Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
>MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
>To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
>http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:02:12 BST