Hi Magnus, Bo
> >Marco
> >even illusions are real.
Magnus
> Cool! That statement is exclusive for the MoQ isn't it?
Don't know if it's exclusive. But it's very MOQish, I guess. So do you agree
that the "A" in "A.I." is superfluous?
Marco
> >Reality is Quality. Truth
> >is a static intellectual pattern of value. The Truth that says that
> >everything is in my head is a static pattern of value. You can't prove it
> >too. I'd say it is good, but with many limits. The MOQ surpasses both the
> >"all in my head" truth and the "distinct outer reality" truth claiming
that
> >they are both high level intellectual patterns.
Magnus
> Hmm... statements like these sounds like philosophology. Very rational
indeed but not very well suited to calm down two opponents trying to prove
what "the world is really like".
Yes, but someone else wrote Lila before me. So, dear opponents, try to read
Lila if you want to know more :-) I can add briefly that they are two
competing truths.
BO
> ... may I just add (for Marco). Your saying ...the MOQ
> surpasses both the all-in-my-head and distinct-outer-reality ...etc. is
> correct, but don't you see the obvious in what Magnus points out: It
> doesn't obtain much by saying that both are intellectual patterns ....
but
> it achieves a lot by seeing the (ability of) seeing this divide as the
> intellectual level ITSELF.
Marco
Well you are not adding a lot to my statement. I state that they are two
intellectual patterns. You say that all intellectual patterns operate that
division. I don't agree on that, but it doesn't change the matter: they are
both intellectual patterns of value. The MOQ clearly states that.
> >Marco
> >But when we start talking about something we can't experience we are
> >actually experiencing it.
Magnus
> Intellectually, yes. But not in any other way. You're using the same 4:th
level escape as above and that doesn't really answer the original question.
Marco
But this is the point. Bo is right: we are back into the map/terrain split.
A false dilemma in my opinion. Experiencing is experiencing. Intellectually
experiencing can't be separated from the "other ways", as you say. I've
explained this point in my last post to John B. Hope you read it. Let me
know.
Marco
> >The MOQ doesn't hold that everything is in our
> >head, just says that the world out there can't be separated from people.
Magnus
> Sounds right at first glance but there's something fishy here as well. I
mean, the MoQ is an evolutionary theory right? It doesn't contradict science
in that the universe was created by a Big Bang, then galaxies formed with
stars and planet systems and so on. In other words, the MoQ concedes that
there once existed a reality without people. But then... I don't know, are
you saying that the MoQ didn't exist - that Quality didn't run things -
before Pirsig came along? I think that puts us right back into hiding in the
mind. What's the difference between that and Descarte?
Marco
Absolutely not. I'm stating that science, and philosophy in general, is
intellectual so all what we know thanks to philosophy is intellectual.
Indeed, if the moq is right, there was and there is a 3-level reality (and
DQ, of course) "before" our intellect... What reality I really am not sure.
Tell me, are you sure that the current Big Bang theory will never be dropped
for something better? Intellect rebuilds reality into theories, ideas, maps.
Knowing is creating an intellectual reality... but it's also participating
to reality, firstly because the intellectual level is real, then because it
influences the below levels: after the "real" theories on gravitation, a
biological mammal known as homo sapiens is able to fly faster than sound up
to the Moon. Not 'cause the theory is right or wrong: 'cause it's good and
works. And the effects on the three below levels are clear. When I say that
the world can't be separated from people it's because we can't, not because
there is not a "real" world.
Again, more on this in my post to John B.
thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Ciao,
Marco
Bo
> don't mind it dear Marco for being my "scape-goat" this time!
My dear Bo, you're always welcome!
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